VW Strut mount ?

It looks like i will be updating my front shocks to some JVAB soooper biatching coilovers and was wondering what the vw guys were using. So far i have not had issues but would like to upgrade. I know the vr6 ones are supposed to be an upgrade but are they strong enough? Should i look into Subarat ones which JVL suggests to everyone?
Any other options?
I prefer not to cut the top of the towers if possible.

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

I've been using the vr6 ones for 11 or so events and only replaced the $3 bearings in them once. My car weighs about 2400lbs and takes a beating on lspr roads. If you want to spend $300 the obvious choice are the burmeister engineering plates. Those are beefy.

turoc Wrote:
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> It looks like i will be updating my front shocks
> to some JVAB soooper biatching coilovers and was
> wondering what the vw guys were using. So far i
> have not had issues but would like to upgrade. I
> know the vr6 ones are supposed to be an upgrade
> but are they strong enough? Should i look into
> Subarat ones which JVL suggests to everyone?
> Any other options?
> I prefer not to cut the top of the towers if
> possible.
>
Talk to Chris Havas about towing to Baie d Chaleur and having first one then the other "Upgraded' VR6 ones fail.
Calling the VR6 ones "upgraded" and better is like saying a larger turd you have to eat is better.

It's still a turd.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Carl S Wrote:
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> I've been using the vr6 ones for 11 or so events
> and only replaced the $3 bearings in them once.
> My car weighs about 2400lbs and takes a beating on
> lspr roads. If you want to spend $300 the obvious
> choice are the burmeister engineering plates.
> Those are beefy.
$5 for the last Sub-a-rat ones I used on a VW.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

They are considered an "upgrade" in the VW community coz the stock ones are even worst. I am running an oldschool autotech strut towe bar which wraps around the shock tower for support. If i cut the tower i wouldnt be able to use that and would have to reinforce the shock towers so they do not mushroom.

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

turoc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They are considered an "upgrade" in the VW
> community coz the stock ones are even worst. I am
> running an oldschool autotech strut towe bar which
> wraps around the shock tower for support. If i cut
> the tower i wouldnt be able to use that and would
> have to reinforce the shock towers so they do not
> mushroom.

Use some ingenuity.

---

Grant Hughes

I don't know, when comparing the VR6 ones and the stock ones right next to each other I found the stock one to be beefier with more metal in it. Seems to work ok for me. But what you should really be thinking are Burmeister Camber plates as Carl said as I believe it will allow you to ditch the strut top all together..

Either way the strut tops are relatively cheap and can be changed in less time than it takes to get a burger at in-n-out...so not a bad idea to do it often.

I'm not sure how the strut braces go in regards to strengthening the towers, but one of the first improvements I made on my GTI were reinforced front and rear strut towers..they are clearly one of the achilles heels of the VWs.

Hey John, can you explain your recommendation as using a Subaru mount? That's new to me.

thanks.

-e



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2008 08:15PM by Eddie Fiorelli.

Eddie Fiorelli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Hey John, can you explain your recommendation as
> using a Subaru mount? That's new to me.
>
> thanks.
Sure.
Think of what we all know and then connect the dots:
*Germans build nice cars
*Germans have major domestic market.
*German roads are smooth, all bumps have been forbidden!
*VW, and as I have said before, Sierra/Mare-koooooor top mounts are cheesy shit ***made of used beer cans and using 3-4 BBs as the rolling elements
VW top mounts DO fail, VR6 top mounts fail, Xratty top mounts fail as in shatter.

Subaru---and for that matter every other Japanese car I've seen using conventional struts use a real live ball bearing with a 15mm ID.

And I have never heard of a Sub-a-rat top mount FAILING used at the speeds people run those really rather heavy WRXs
It is clearly a much stronger design very similar in size and build to Ford Escort "Roller bearing Top Mounts", a paragon of durability.

If I, the notorious JVL, is saying something is GOOD about a Subaru part, that is reason to take note.

If we CAN simplify and solve a known problem---maybe not at the speed some of youse guys are going now, but someday, maybe soon, it will be a problem, and do it for 5 bucks a side at any wrecking yard, and for you guys with VW top pin maybe some simple spacers, then you'd be crazy not to think about what would be needed to do this.

Here a cornvienient piccie from a Subie fan:


Here's a drawing more or less of the cheesy VW/ Xratty design:



Your Golves have the truncated cone bump in the body,



the Subaru mounts have it in the mounting plates.
A bit of cutting out the "volcano crater" and maybe a wise reinforcing of the top plate and drill 3 holes and you're done.


FOREVER.
>
>
>
> Edited 4 times. Last edit at Feb 28, 2008 by Eddie
> Fiorelli.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John will probably say I spent too much money considering the subaru option (which is a good one imo) but I opted for some fancy schmancy sellholm bits.



Basically what's nice about this setup is there's a big needle bearing on the top of the spring seat so it rotates freely, and the heim joint in the strut top isn't supporting the entire weight of the suspender, just the damper. The spring is seated against the strut tower now with a big 3/16" plate welded to it.

My VW over time started getting lower in the front, I realized the stock strut tops were deforming over time.

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------------------------------------

http://www.ckrally.com

Sooooo you grind the crater a bit and drill 3 holes and that's it ?

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Cheers
M.Samli
Phoenix AZ
Gaylant VR4
EVO III GSR (Stolen)


Rallies are no place for traitors

heh, I was just thinking Burmeister plates but there are some cool ideas here. Thanks guys!

Eddie Fiorelli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> heh, I was just thinking Burmeister plates but
> there are some cool ideas here. Thanks guys!


Eddie, the Burmeister plates are burly enough and Lurch has said they can up the size of the spherical bearing to a size that I feel better about (I use 7/8" IDwhich is a couple of thou from the 22mm ID which Ford used, and that's A LOT larger than what anybody else uses---but somehow I think Ford Motorsport might know a smidge more about what's needed to survive in rally than most people, so good to copy them).

But for the price, I think youse boys would be better served thinking about 5 buck top mounts and $3OO tubular adjustable lower control arms.

I've been yapping about this for years, (and I won't do any without some confirmed orders) and what did we just see this weekend at Doo Wops?

An excellent and exciting drivefrom Jay Woodward sunk with a broken lower arm.

No serious car in any serious series ever adjusts camber at the top mount if the rules allow swapping out control arms, and Gp2 allows it.

I imagine our friend Tim Taylor could whip up some more CAD-Porn illustrating exactly why making the lower control arm push and pull directly on the knuckle is so much more better and direct that trying to make an adjustment at the spindle end by moving the top mount--a bunch.

There are REAL reasons real builders do things the way they do.


AND A BIG ADVANTAGE OF THE TUBULAR ARMS IS THE ABILITY TO WIND IN SOME CASTOR.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I destroyed stock VW top mounts in 1 stage, the VR6 ones were worlds (like 300%) better they typically lasted 3 stages.

The Burmister top mounts lasted the life time of the car.

It is up to you - do you wish to lift to go over that water bar (cattle guard, rut, wash out, grade change, etc.) or leave your foot on the floor? Just know if I am in your class I did not lift and I just took 5 seconds from you.

---

In the long run reality always wins.

I see you ask the same question here as "over there", so I'll post the same reply here so JV can comment;


I have Burmeister mounts now, but years ago I used to modify stock mounts. I'd flip them upside down (into a plastic pail that just happened to be an exact fit) and fill them with urethane up to the level of the metal spring seat. Filling the void basically turned them into solid rubber mounts, they held up pretty well, and easily lasted a full season (5-6 events). I never destroyed one on stage or had to replace one during a rally for any reason. The bearings were usually pretty beat and bent when I did replace them, but no catastrophic failures.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Eddie Fiorelli Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > heh, I was just thinking Burmeister plates
> but
> > there are some cool ideas here. Thanks guys!
>
>
> Eddie, the Burmeister plates are burly enough and
> Lurch has said they can up the size of the
> spherical bearing to a size that I feel better
> about (I use 7/8" IDwhich is a couple of thou from
> the 22mm ID which Ford used, and that's A LOT
> larger than what anybody else uses---but somehow I
> think Ford Motorsport might know a smidge more
> about what's needed to survive in rally than most
> people, so good to copy them).
>
> But for the price, I think youse boys would be
> better served thinking about 5 buck top mounts and
> $3OO tubular adjustable lower control arms.
>
> I've been yapping about this for years, (and I
> won't do any without some confirmed orders) and
> what did we just see this weekend at Doo Wops?
>
> An excellent and exciting drivefrom Jay Woodward
> sunk with a broken lower arm.
>
> No serious car in any serious series ever adjusts
> camber at the top mount if the rules allow
> swapping out control arms, and Gp2 allows it.
>
> I imagine our friend Tim Taylor could whip up some
> more CAD-Porn illustrating exactly why making the
> lower control arm push and pull directly on the
> knuckle is so much more better and direct that
> trying to make an adjustment at the spindle end by
> moving the top mount--a bunch.
>


I can confirm that John has been yapping at me to do some control arms for at least a year. I do actually have a new GTX control arm design in the computer. Two of them actually. One uber sexy sheet metal, tab and slot self fixturing, laser cut, dimple die flared wonder. And one simple tubular steel design with common rod ends and a simple CNC stub that picks up the ball joint.

I just haven't made any yet because I still have one spare arm and things that make money now (capitalist swine that I am) get priority in the shop. If Protege arms are similar to the ones on the GTX I can easily set you up Jay. Or Golf arms for that matter. If it goes up as a real job it would take about two weeks total for a set of any custom arms.

Tim