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welding fwd differential

Posted by gpbullock 
gpbullock
Mark Bullock
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welding fwd differential
April 14, 2008 09:44PM
Ok, I've had a lot of opinions regarding running LSD's or open diff in our 2002 Ford Focus SVT. Most agree that the Quaife and Torsen LSD's are poor choices for offroad use. Our car is a Spec Focus car and those are the only two choices we have for the class other than open diff. However, we are the only western spec focus running so far and until 3 more Spec Foci show up we will be running in G2. That said, I'm thinking about welding the diff, and have heard numerous opinions which favor this modification, other than the occasional broken axle or slightly more difficult to drive on asphalt or at slow speed when turning or in reverse. I'm still open to more opinions regarding this modification.

In the event of welding the diff. Are there any photos of the process? Any tips or warnings regarding welding the diff?

Thanks,
Mark
Plan B Racing
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tedm
Ted Mendham
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Re: welding fwd differential
April 15, 2008 10:13AM
I don't want to disrespect the guys like Dave Clark and Mark Utecht, who know their stuff and have every right to their opinions, but I have seen people do pretty well with Quaife type things, too. Mostly VW Golf folks.

This has been beat to death, but I like beating on things that are already dead.. Welded or clutch type diffs are more likely to get to the next stage with only one 1/2 shaft still hooked up. Welded is cheaper. That's a big factor for most people.

On the other hand, Quaifes don't wear out (no clutches to replace), and are guaranteed even for racing and have been proven to work for some rallyists as well. A Quaife type thing might put less stress on CVs as well.

I was taught that a big part of of not grenading 1/2 shafts was NOT putting the right foot all the way down with the steering fully locked, in the rough stuff. Straighten the steering wheel a bit then mash it.

Mark Utecht once did an excellent article, somewhere, on how to make yer own "lincoln locker". Maybe it was an early SS.com thing.

Dave and Mark have been through a lot more than me, but I still would buy a Quiaife.

What does Chris Duplessis run?

What did Tim O'Neil used to run?

Stop obsessing and drive the car!





Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net
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Cosworth
Paulinho Ferreira
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Re: welding fwd differential
April 15, 2008 01:25PM
I wouldn't recomend a welded diff at all, its very harsh and it will understeer too much. I run a quaife my self, not as ideal as a plated diff would be but at the same time its been working great, both on gravel and tarmac. I dont really notice any excessive wheel spin at all and plus I use LFB as a poor mans traction control anyways.
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Eddie Fiorelli
Eddie Fiorelli
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Re: welding fwd differential
April 15, 2008 02:50PM
There are two more potential options:

a Kaaz (friction discs internal), which seems to be the new wonder diff (I seem to remember the Quiaffe being super cool 8 years ago). Not as open as a quaiffe, not locked either.

Also, a race spool, which basically is a solid spindle to attach the ring gear onto. Pretty much a rich man's welded diff.

Just from reading these boards, I don't recall seeing many people promoting the locked diff.

-e



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2008 02:51PM by Eddie Fiorelli.
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derek
Derek Bottles
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Re: welding fwd differential
April 15, 2008 04:03PM
I will step into this. I have used both a quaife and a Gemini (VW Motorsports) plate diff and a I also have a little exp with a welded diff. On stage in my car with the proper preload on the plate diff there was no noticeable differance between the welded and the plate diff.

I broke CV's and shafts with both quaife and LSD at about the same rate and I almost always broke them going in a straight line.

Note I was braking shafts about as often as CV's, steering angle did not matter.

The Quaife was very nice on smooth tarmac everywhere else it was steeming smelly pile of crap. It was a spooky not predictable, wandering, odd torque steering nightmare. Sure I did mange to win a stage here and there with it but that was inspite of it not because of it.

The KAAZ is a plate diff, as is the gripper as is the Gemini they are all about the same under power, in braking some of the newer diffs (KAAZ) have less lockup as they have flater ramp angles and thus might turn in better.

Understeer in a Golf with a weled or plate diff is a function of going too slow into the turns and not getting proper braking it is not a function of the diff, I never ever understeered into turns (unless I had a wheel locked up in braking.)

With my plate diff I could take of the axel nut with on wheel in the air and one on the ground, same with lug nuts.

If Quaife gave me free diffs I would still not run them. What someone did many years ago before we knew better should not effect what we do today. No A7 Kit Car or Super1600 car uses the quaife shit today they all use proper plate diffs.

However there was good wisdom in the words that drivers make cars go fast not car parts.












In the long run reality always wins.
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: welding fwd differential
April 15, 2008 04:30PM
Eddie Fiorelli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are two more potential options:
>
> a Kaaz (friction discs internal), which seems to
> be the new wonder diff (I seem to remember the
> Quiaffe being super cool 8 years ago). Not as open
> as a quaiffe, not locked either.
>

Multi-plate didds were always the wonder diff in the whole rest of the world except USA since forever (late '60s) but somehow, (Mainly some slick gloassy magazines acting as whores and a VW "turnerz" company acting as pimp and writing pil;es of bullshit for a decade) USA alone seemed to get enamoured with twirly thang type diffs.

They CAN be made to react quicker and more even by shimming the Belleville washers in the center, but they DO wear, they get slop[py as there is an enormous amount of THRUST on the ends of the little twirly pinions.
They generate TONS of heat as well.

Break down and bite the bullet, many who have tried other things and then FINALLY gone to a proper multi-plate clutch diff have said hosetly that they wish they had done the right thing from day one.

John V
Multi-plate diff fwd since 1985.

And I don't want a diff if I can have a plate diff (or a proper re-set Viscous.)
> Just from reading these boards, I don't recall
> seeing many people promoting the locked diff.
>
> -e
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Apr 15, 2008 by Eddie
> Fiorelli.






John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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Eddie Fiorelli
Eddie Fiorelli
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Re: welding fwd differential
April 15, 2008 05:48PM
john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
.
>
> Break down and bite the bullet, many who have
> tried other things and then FINALLY gone to a
> proper multi-plate clutch diff have said hosetly
> that they wish they had done the right thing from
> day one.
>

I'd love to toss my Quaiffe but remember that list with the PS fluid cooler near the bottom..well guess what's beneath it? smiling smiley

After doing 2 tranny rebuilds within 3 rallies I'm taking a break from that part of the car unless I'm forced again. The good news, the first rebuild failed was the fault of the d00d that did it for me, the second rebuild is my own handiwork and so far the tranny hasn't grenaded yet. smiling smiley




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Tom B
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Re: welding fwd differential
April 15, 2008 07:07PM
Quaife's are crap....nice on pavement when the wheels are on the ground...I am pissed I still own one....same thing as Derek said, highly unpredictable, shifty, twitchy....can't wait to run it again at Olympus



-Tom
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SteelSolutions
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Re: welding fwd differential
April 16, 2008 03:58AM
Looks around hope no one really listening i had a 87 escort gt and thought i was the
coolest in high school with a welded front diff caged beater but i loved every
minute of it. and did not break the tranny but broke 4 shafts in 20000 miles not
bad. the steering is something to be desired, But i have done things in that car
that could not be touched with allot of front or rear drives and snow trips with a
toe rope and a snowboard where to much fun not worrying about getting stuck.

With my nill rally exp id say its way to harsh it pulls bad when you hit stuff and with any grip it drives it self.

nothing like at a stop light and smoke most cars to 30 in a
beeter with all that traction. i wanted to pull the motor and tranny and turn it and
build a 4x4 rock buggy and run drive lines out the tranny and have a 5 speed
transfer case.

Also i would like to help build the trailing arm for the back of
thos cars i have all the tools and some good ideas.



TSSFAB.US No HYPE just parts!!!! And check us out on Facebook!!!
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tmachnik
Tom Machnik
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Re: welding fwd differential
April 16, 2008 07:58PM
You might think you're happy with a Quaiffe, but really you're not, you just won't realize it until you actually throw a plate diff in there. It's worth every penny and every second it takes to install a proper plate diff. Rebuilds and maintenance concerns are BS, I haven't actually heard of anyone having to replace the friction plates yet, and it's been 4 or 5 years since an increasing amount of people in North American rally have been using these types of diffs. I actually brought in the very first Gripper diff (for a VW) to North America about 5 years ago, and it clamps just as hard now as it did when new, no maintenance yet. Just be careful when you get to your first rally using one if you're used to a Quaiffe, I set up the car like I normally would and hit the gas expecting to drift to the outside of a corner, all of a sudden I stuffed the front of the car into the inside ditch, there was so much more traction than I was used to with the ATB nonsense. Mad crazy hook.
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Ascona73
Bob Legere
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Re: welding fwd differential
April 17, 2008 12:36PM
derek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Quaife was very nice on smooth tarmac
> everywhere else it was steeming smelly pile of
> crap. It was a spooky not predictable, wandering,
> odd torque steering nightmare. Sure I did mange to
> win a stage here and there with it but that was
> inspite of it not because of it.

Chris Havas found pretty much the same thing on his MK4 Golf G5 car. He had the Quaife 6-speed dogbox and the Quaife helical diff. Car had trouble putting the power down, and when a CV broke (often), the car stayed right where it broke. He switched to a VW Motorsports plate-type diff and commented it was the single best thing he did to the car. Much more driveable, faster, more predictable, and you could finish a stage (somewhat) if a CV broke.

Bob




Opel is a 4-letter word...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10498579@N07/sets/
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urr
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urr
Re: welding fwd differential
April 18, 2008 11:55AM
I like welding when there's no other option aka...quaife....
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C LePoudre
C LePoudre
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Re: welding fwd differential
April 18, 2008 01:30PM
tmachnik Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You might think you're happy with a Quaiffe, but
> really you're not, you just won't realize it until
> you actually throw a plate diff in there. It's
> worth every penny and every second it takes to
> install a proper plate diff. Rebuilds and
> maintenance concerns are BS, I haven't actually
> heard of anyone having to replace the friction
> plates yet, and it's been 4 or 5 years since an
> increasing amount of people in North American
> rally have been using these types of diffs. I
> actually brought in the very first Gripper diff
> (for a VW) to North America about 5 years ago, and
> it clamps just as hard now as it did when new, no
> maintenance yet. Just be careful when you get to
> your first rally using one if you're used to a
> Quaiffe, I set up the car like I normally would
> and hit the gas expecting to drift to the outside
> of a corner, all of a sudden I stuffed the front
> of the car into the inside ditch, there was so
> much more traction than I was used to with the ATB
> nonsense. Mad crazy hook.


I love that story Tom. I've read it before 'somewhere' else, and I've told it to others who asked about diffs.

Btw: mine is welded...a bitch in parking lots, great on gravel. On snow and ice I'm undecided, as the car has not handled great in those conditions but may be due to suspension, etc (although I'd like a better driver to take my car out once).
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WAM
Bill Martin
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WAM
Re: welding fwd differential
June 29, 2008 10:52AM
derek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I will step into this. I have used both a quaife
> and a Gemini (VW Motorsports) plate diff and a I
> also have a little exp with a welded diff. On
> stage in my car with the proper preload on the
> plate diff there was no noticeable differance
> between the welded and the plate diff.

That statement really gets my attention and I note no one challenged it. I'm choosing a diff for my G60 Rabbit 02a, and KAAZ was prettymuch on top the list. But this is a non-street-legal, dirt-only RX car. If it's true that off pavement a plate diff is indistiguishable from welded, why not go welded? Even better, why not go with a race spool, cheaper than a plate diff, and strongest of all options?

I know on tarmac I'd hate it. But that's not part of the plan.

Thanx, Bill
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eyesoreracing
Dave Coleman
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Re: welding fwd differential
June 29, 2008 11:05AM
> That statement really gets my attention and I note
> no one challenged it. I'm choosing a diff for my
> G60 Rabbit 02a, and KAAZ was prettymuch on top the
> list. But this is a non-street-legal, dirt-only
> RX car. If it's true that off pavement a plate
> diff is indistiguishable from welded, why not go
> welded? Even better, why not go with a race
> spool, cheaper than a plate diff, and strongest of
> all options?
>
> I know on tarmac I'd hate it. But that's not part
> of the plan.
>
> Thanx, Bill
>

Welded, or very tight clutch diffs are going to work best a higher speeds. In low-speed stuff like RX, you'll want something that allows more of a speed differential between left and right wheels. If you back it into every corner, welded might work, but in RX, you often don't have the speed you need to get the tail going where you want it.

When I set up my KAAZ Mazda3 diff, Ray at KAAZ said most of the VW rally guys running his diff set it up with only 2/3 of the clutch plates active. I suspect this would behave differently from a spool, especially at low speeds.

-Dave
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