Time to rebuild the VW 16v motor

OK now, the motor crapped out today. White smoke coming out of the exhaust with a little throttle response, oil in the air filter box and on the filter. I suspect the head gasket is gone/ or about to be gone. I changed the rear engine main seal last week and drove the car for a bit today. It seems there was little oil in the pan eventhough i filled it with 4 1/2 quarts last week. Didnt thorougly inspect anything yet and dont really car to either as i will be rebuilding a 2lt instead. I figure this will be a good opportunity to start a topic where I will post things step by step of the build with the intention of a making it a good source for others. Eventhough I have replaced engines in the past I have never rebuilt them. So I will need your guidance and knowledge, and am open for your suggestions. The dissasembly should begin this Sunday if i can get my engine stand back from my friend. I will do as much as possible by myself but obviously machinging etc will be left to proffesionals. I intend to finish this within a month but newborn can prevent me from doing so. The main goal is to get it ready and broken in by RWV in August.
Pending budget I would like to bump the compression upto 11:1 and install cams. Obviously the main goal will be to make it reliable first and the power will out do my current 1.8 anyway. I would like to use the 1.8 head as it has bigger exhaust valves which is rumored to make more power.(I havent seen any dyno sheets etc yet)

So lead me on,
Oscar

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

1.8 head has better exhaust ports, not bigger valves...either head can be made to work well with some bowl work

Don't go crazy on the cams unless you have a ring and pinion to back it up with.

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
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Have an 020 w/ 4.25 amd gripper diff
Main reason using the 1.8 head is;

1 I already have it
2 Previous owners recently built it

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2008 10:39PM by turoc.

288 deg is about the max on cams until a BUNCH of machine work needs to be done...

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT

Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA

Unable to get a hold of my engine stand i ended up buying one miles away as none were available nearby. I started stripping the motor. Removed the water pump, ps pump etc. and took it to a car wash to pressure wash it. Not the best way but did come out relatively clean. Hopefully by sunday i should strip it down to bare block

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

I would avoid going to 11:1 CR on a first engine experience, Oscar. A bit of a mistake on setting the timing, and you will destroy those nice new pistons. I don't know VW's but you might also have to be buying race fuel for each event if you have 11:1 CR, and that's gotta cost a bunch these days. And, you won't have to worry about going through the process of determining piston to valve clearance and having the pistons machined with valve 'eyebrows' etc. Go with something conservative on CR, mild cams, and use this first engine build to gain experience on doing the basics correctly. Walk before you run, 'specially since you want a reliable engine. Good driving will overcome an 11:1 CR any day.

Regards,
Mark B.

11:1 is no problem on a vw with 93 octane. The stock 2l 16v is 10.8:1 anyways. And vw 16v engines are interference anyways, so just remember to turn the engine over by hand twice after you put the timing belt on and check that the marks are all still lined up. Measure your 2l and 1.8l head chambers, when I did the 1.8l head was 2cc smaller, which will probably give you the compression increase you're looking for.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2008 07:08PM by Carl S.

I was hoping to up the compression by decking anyway before spending money on pistons. Pistons are to be purchased only if necessary and if i have to i will probably change plans and go the other route(similar motor to the wimpeys) = aba bottom end and 16v head.

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

my opinion, for what it's worth

Increased compression from new pistons is not really worth it from a $$ to hp point of view (check on-line calculators), but it will help re-gain compression lost from going with cams that have a greater duration. You may be best doing this by decking the head, but I'm not sure how far you can go with a 16v head (I would stay within vw recommendations) due to it being a interference engine, and the greater lift you will get with different cams. What's more, new pistons are $$$$, not just for the pistons but for the machine work that goes along with it to make it work correctly (unless you've got a friend who will do this for beers). And then if you're going to rip it apart for machine work and new pistons, you might as well look at ARP fasteners and new rods...... I did this work once, and I regret it now. For the money, you're better looking at other alternatives to make you faster and leave the bottom alone.

That said, if you're looking for that magical 200hp number that many n.a.16v guys claim, there is a lot of work you can do to get there, but count on $10K to do it right.

personally, I'm starting to think a mk4 golf with a 1.8t is the right platform if you want to stick with vw and have big power. It's a heavier car than the mk2, but you can make lots of hp with bolt on and plug in modifications, without opening the engine at all.

Hey Oscar,

Are you thinking of re-using the present pistons? Just keep in mind that your pistons have wear on them; even if the skirts are OK (i.e., not worn toooo badly), you have to check the ring groove clearance with new rings to insure that they have not worn too wide. If so, you are wasting a lot of time and money, as loose rings in the grooves just wear out very fast, and don't seal well. And, with wear on the skirts, and the operations needed to remove the ring ridge at the top of the cylinders, and then honing the cylinders, you will have some looseness in the piston clearances, which also hurts ring sealing. So, there are a lot of things that can be worn that will make a simple re-ring a waste of time for performance engines.

I would put in new, low cost pistons if budget limited, and properly bore the cylinders, before any serious decking work beyond what is needed to true the head and block. And if you are going to raise the CR, having good ring sealing is essential. Also, keep in mind that when you deck the block or head, you will shift the cam timing. (I presume; again, I don't know VW's and if there is any easy adjustment on their engines to compensate for this.)

If the pistons skirts are really in good shape, the ring grooves are not worn (i.e, not at the maximum limit of ring-to-groove clearance), and the pistons are oversized already, then I guess you could reuse the pistons. You would have to get another low mileage block, and have it bored and honed to fit the pistons at the right piston-to-cylinder clearance.

Bottom line: do it right and be conservative if this is you first time into full engine work. You need reliablity and durability more than max HP. And....you have 2 rallies under your belt? My truism: your 3rd through 6th rallies are your most dangerous. Why make it moreso with more HP at this point?

Regards,
Mark B.

Mark,
The motor i got is a relatively low mileage one, actually i got it off Mark in Pa who also got it off of Wilson. According to my findings, it was a running motor with 78K or so on it. I would have considered mounting it as is but the ports have a little bit of rust and there were no spark plugs on it so i am a little concerned to mount it as is. Since i do have a 1.8 in the car which has given me issues and it looks like i have a blown headgasket i figure i might as well go and build the 2lt bottom end. I will be using the 1.8 head as it was recently rebuilt by previous owner. The reason i would like to bump the compression (as mentioned the motor already has a 10.8:1) i dont want to mess with it again, at least in terms of internals. I hope to finish competing this season with this car, and if all goes well get something newer like a focus or a civic si for next year. If those dont work i would like to reshell/recage another vw.The 2lt bone stock produces about 13hp, and about 13lbs of torque more. Which totals to 136 ish hp. It does have its flows though, it cant rev as fast. I ve been in touch with JVL about the motor and the idea is not to go crazy in terms of budget and power. This doesnt mean we will not use new parts. As John puts it "let the motor/parts do the talking, not you, not me"


I am keeping in mind the very first thing you said to me before my first ever race BRS 2007. I am well aware that a person can get a little cocky between the 3rd and 6th races of his rally career. Due to my wife and i having a baby recently i havent been able to go and test (+motor is blown) but will get back into to it and get as much seat time as possible.
I am planning on coming down to RTN as crew or marshall. Will you be there?

Here are a couple of pics. The second one is as it sits for now.

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

turoc Wrote:
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The
> reason i would like to bump the compression (as
> mentioned the motor already has a 10.8:1) i dont
> want to mess with it again, at least in terms of
> internals. I hope to finish competing this season
> with this car, and if all goes well get something
> newer like a focus or a civic si for next year.
OK, so make it reliable and durable so you will have something good to sell at the end of the year. Again, I would put CR as a number 2 priority, and emphasize making it a good solid rebuild.

> The 2lt bone stock produces about 13hp,
> and about 13lbs of torque more. Which totals to
> 136 ish hp.
That's plenty.

> I ve been in touch with JVL about the
> motor and the idea is not to go crazy in terms of
> budget and power. This doesnt mean we will not use
> new parts. As John puts it "let the motor/parts do
> the talking, not you, not me"
You're in good hands.

> I am planning on coming down to RTN as crew or
> marshall. Will you be there?
Not planning on it; I need to spend the time on Rally WV prep; things never go as easily as we would like!

OK, I'll quit lecturing now! I think you have it handled.

Regards,
Mark B.

Please do lecture me, as i have great respect to you and what you say!

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

I have a fresh 2.0 16v motor sitting on a stand, all lonely. new bearings, valve seals, reasonable poting on the head, honed block, pistons all checked and balanced, belt, pulley, gaskets... ready to pop in. Not dying to part with it but could use the cash. I plan on being at Rally TN, could easily bring it. let me know if you are interested.

John

You got PM

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!