1.65" dia, .120 wall tube....

I bought a car with a cage made with 1.65"dia/.120 wall. All my engineering buddies don't even flinch to say without doubt that this is much stronger than 1.75/.095. This is likely, considering the age, like what, 1-5/8"dia? .... I was very concerned, but it is not ERW= whew.

Anyone disagree with this?? any scrutineer want to say, based on this limited info, (and assuming of course all welds are legit and all the proper/mandated bars are there) that a cage with 1.65/.120 tube is safe.

I hope to "make a case" for this, hopefully not have to re-cage the car, and just add the needed bars and gussets to get up to (NASA) regs.

Not trying to skirt safety in any way... just cause there is a "minimum" number on something, and that minimum number is not met, that the "whole picture" can be taken in, thought about, and decided on with the proper authority, that a cage is more than adequate to prevent reasonable harm to a competitor in case of an accident... the word grandfathering comes to mind.

I'm not trying to start any big thing, but re-caging this car is not an option for me- IMHO it would destroy the integrity (and originality) of the car in the process. I want to run it. I will soon get it before an approved person to make my case for a logbook. just wanting more opinions.

I *think* the rules say min size is 1.5x.095 and 1.75x.095. If so, then you could go bigger. Me thinks

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Yellowhammer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> I bought a car with a cage made with
> 1.65"dia/.120 wall. All my engineering buddies
> don't even flinch to say without doubt that this
> is much stronger than 1.75/.095. This is likely,
> considering the age, like what, 1-5/8"dia? .... I
> was very concerned, but it is not ERW= whew.
>
> Anyone disagree with this?? any scrutineer want
> to say, based on this limited info, (and assuming
> of course all welds are legit and all the
> proper/mandated bars are there) that a cage with
> 1.65/.120 tube is safe.
>
> I hope to "make a case" for this, hopefully not
> have to re-cage the car, and just add the needed
> bars and gussets to get up to (NASA) regs.
>
> Not trying to skirt safety in any way... just
> cause there is a "minimum" number on something,
> and that minimum number is not met, that the
> "whole picture" can be taken in, thought about,
> and decided on with the proper authority, that a
> cage is more than adequate to prevent reasonable
> harm to a competitor in case of an accident... the
> word grandfathering comes to mind.
>
> I'm not trying to start any big thing, but
> re-caging this car is not an option for me- IMHO
> it would destroy the integrity (and originality)
> of the car in the process. I want to run it. I
> will soon get it before an approved person to make
> my case for a logbook. just wanting more
> opinions.

Take a bunch of piccies and send them to Mark Bowers or Gene McCollough.


Hey I have a bunch of Dave Clark's 94mm forged Ross pistons here to refresh an engine I built for him back in 1987, and I have the rods which we used which are super strong Saab 134mm rods.

YOU NEED THESE PARTS!!!!!
See if I sold these things to you then Dave would have the dough to get pistons to go with the Soooooper Bitchin 144.5mm rods I have on my shelf for 3 years just for Dave.

Come on!!!
Bore the block 1mm and you're set!
>
>
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I'm guessing it doesn't have a log book presently. Depending on the actual weight of the car, it may be eligible for a NRS logbook. Considering your location it is a Mark Bowers call. Tubing will need to be either DOM or CDS, not "NASCAR" tubing. The 1.65 seems like the NHRA tubing and I'm not sure of the process if so.

What is the car and it's history ? As JVL said, get us some pics please.

Gene McCullough
RA/NRS Scrutineer

I was in a wierd mood yesterday, so excuse this thread as it now seems silly to me. I guess I was just trying to make myself feel good about this situation.


I guess what I'm gonna do is prep the car for a logbook and drag it up to rally TN. If Mark B. lets me run, great- I'll run... if not then no hard feelings. Maybe Mark would give me a one-time event waiver, along with a short list of requirements to get done before the next event. Is Mark on here?

I've talked to Mark and even sent him some pictures, but it's really hard to get a feel with even the best pictures. I'm afraid the answer might be no, which is what I'm afraid of, but it's time to buck-up actually get a definitive answer. I got the car and was hesitant about having to re-cage, but I wanted the car anyway despite that possibility. This is the Monza I'm talking about. I was going to try to run the Manta but time has gotten short on me and I'm bogged down in the cage installation process.

I'll figure out how to do pics on here and start a thread on the Monza- it's a pretty interesting piece.

oh, anyway.... hello everyone. My name's John and I'm a rally-holic-dreamer. I don't have any 30 years experience or anything, I've done a few rallies in my old supercharged Scirocco that I recently sold to a gent in New York. I'm trying to do the Manta and the Monza for fun only... I don't think I'll ever have the time or extra money to run all over the country and seriously for points, sponsorship, money, or fame- just not gonna happen. I'm a blue-coller guy that works his ass off 60+ a week and plays with cars the best he can on practically no money. I'm the type of bloke who feels accomplishment just making it to an event and running dead fucking last. My list of events that I can reasonably do is short: sandblast, TN, maybe WV.. so I'm a NASA guy by geography. I like NASA's philosophy of trying to do events for regular people not rockstars. Doesn't matter cause RA is waay outta my budget and will probably start requiring a completely new 3"dia carbon fiber rollcage for every event soon.

whoops, I accidentally made a little bit of a statement there, sorry. anyway- howdy folks.

Here's the Manta a few weeks ago:












Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2008 07:48AM by Yellowhammer.

Pics of the Monza please. And how come you are not running it at RTN?

---

"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

W, I have been planning on running RTN in the Manta, but looks like once again time is gonna ruin me on that. So might have to jump ship and try to get the Monza ready. I hate to post Monza pics cause its so ugly at this point. Wanted to go through everything before the debut, but that seems an unlikely dream.

btw W, still haven't heard from Anders- is everything cool?

More Manta- it's getting 1.75/.095, sill bars, A-piller support, gussets, the works. I guess as a new cage build and not purchased as a FIA kit it won't be RA legal ever will it?

Main hoop and front hoop bent, that was the hard part.

Well John..( another John? ) Mark is usually around here, but gets busy as we all do. NASA does afford Chief Scrutineers some room for slightly out of standard stuff. It still has to be pretty close and may not be accepted at the next event either. Grandfathering stuff is no longer done.

To your other statements..RA requires HNRs, NASA requires FIA seats. Other than that the rules, prep and costs are pretty much the same.

While the anti-RA sentiment may get you a few winks and atta boys on this website, in reality it is an un-warranted waste of energy.

Good luck with both your projects...if luck has anything to do with having 2 wierd rally projects..


Gene

Luck I think does help and will help.

I'm not mad at RA, I just can't play in that game, honestly no hard feelings, but I will dig slightly on the "North American Pro Series" out of mostly pure jealousy.

to be fair I've not even looked at the RA rules- if I can get NASA legal and get a HANS I'd absolutely love to run 100AW... that's the only one I could get to realistically.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> While the anti-RA sentiment may get you a few
> winks and atta boys on this website, in reality it
> is an un-warranted waste of energy.

Gene, right or wrong there IS a surprisingly strong sentiment that RallyAmerica really is totally uninterested in the guys who can't drop 1200 to 1800 for an entry fee, right or wrong.
>
> Good luck with both your projects...if luck has
> anything to do with having 2 wierd rally
> projects..

What's weird about a Manta?
>
>
> Gene

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

The Manta is weird to me, being a "died in the wool" VW guy and making everyone who knows me wonder why I don't go to the shed and pull out enough stuff to do a Golf, but the Manta is wicked cool and has a rally pedigree I like- POR Mantas I've seen, and there's probably quite a few people still rallying the A-Body in Europe. I've gotten a "proper sweede Rally Header" and super-cool handbuilt intake from Bob Legere. It'll be slow until the thumper motor is built but me no care. Wanna do H-class, or Vintage class if available or maybe a backmarker for GF.

Lotsa work on both cars needed, but cannot do the logical thing and concentrate on one right now.








Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2008 11:41AM by Yellowhammer.

Paris is about 100 miles further than Salem, i.e. still just a long days drive. And despite what some say, our entry fee is no where near $1000.
Richard

---

RichardM

Richard, yes, my apologies... Paris is also on my "To Do" list.

Hey John,

Yep, been off this for a few days. I thought we already talked about the tubing; I did the calcs on the strength a few months back and the 1.62x.12 is OK as long as it is DOM. (I doubt that there was any CDS in the US when that thing was built.) The last I recall, the question hinged on whether it was DOM or ERW.

I think the next steps were to get the braces, sill bars, etc., up to current specs in the '08 NRS cage rules. Seems like you sent some pix but I don't think we ever got into the details of that part.

As for the Manta cage, if you follow the FIA 253 rules on the bracing, yes, you will be R-A legal with the 1.75x.095 DOM tubing. In fact, if you use that size through out, you exceed their requirements; they require the large size on the main hoop and fromt hoop and tubes across the top of the door opening.

BTW, our Manta main hoop top is about 1.5" further back than you show (yeah I know it's just ropes); if you get just at the back edge of the B-pillars, you should be able to use the FIA required x-brace configuration in the main hoop and be in good shape for seat postions.(If I recall correctly that you're not too tall, like me.)

Wonderful to see the Manta coming along! I just got started on our Manta cage (so I can complete the rear suspension which has braces to the cage). One of the great things about the Manta/Ascona A is the stock 9" front suspension travel (!). Very nimble car. Stock 3.44 rear (3.67 for the Rallye model) and tall step from 2nd to 3rd are not great; it's basic a 3 speed car for rallying with the stock drivetrain. Be glad to help with questions you need answered; this is my 3rd Manta/Ascona A. And I think you're on the OpelGT forums which is an even better resource.

Regards,
Mark B.