Rod Ends

I'm working on a project and am trying to source some rod ends.

Traditionally, from what I've read/head, Aurora is the king of the jungle. But there are folks out there using other rod ends with success.

Does anyone know of a good rod ends / heim joints that are reasonably priced?
How about National Rod Ends?

THanks,
-k

krisdahl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm working on a project and am trying to source
> some rod ends.
>
> Traditionally, from what I've read/head, Aurora is
> the king of the jungle. But there are folks out
> there using other rod ends with success.
>
> Does anyone know of a good rod ends / heim joints
> that are reasonably priced?
> How about National Rod Ends?
>
> THanks,
> -k

I've used NHBB, Aurora, and FK with good success and would rank them in that order of descending quality. Some friends of mine sell FK's and are quite happy with them for the price.

http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/JMX-High-Strength-p-348.html


Tim

EDITS: damn I can't type today...



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2008 05:13PM by Tim Taylor.

Try the aircraft supply houses. Probably in your neck of the woods, they're a dime a dozen. I've sold them before, worked for Alatec Motorsports, later Pentacon. There are cross references out there, so it might be worth your time to track one down. I've seen the AN equivalent of an NHBB be less money than the non mil spec part number and it has traceability paperwork to boot.

---

It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion.
William Ralph Inge

TANSTAAFL

krisdahl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm working on a project and am trying to source
> some rod ends.
>
> Traditionally, from what I've read/head, Aurora is
> the king of the jungle. But there are folks out
> there using other rod ends with success.
>
> Does anyone know of a good rod ends / heim joints
> that are reasonably priced?
> How about National Rod Ends?

Let's see what I get when the box of 13-13 arrive in a day or so.

Whatcher making?
>
> THanks,
> -k

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I've heard good stuff about QA1's XM series (kevlar/teflon lined, self lubricating, chromoly). Reasonably priced ($20-30).

I'll look into the other stuff.

To answer your question John, short answer is "Front Radius Rods, Crossmember for the Civic". Long answer is:

The EF Honda Civics/CRX use a front radius rod setup, not altogether unlike what is found on a lot of Nissans from 1970s-1990s, for locating front-to-rear the lower control arm.

Both cars use a kinda stupid setup that is designed for economy and compliance (ride comfort). The front of the radius rod is just a threaded rod with a nut, that goes the front subframe, sandwidched with a couple of big rubber bushings. Basically allows the radius rod to move up and down, side to side. The other end bolts to the lower control arm. Basic, cheap, works okay.


In road racing a lot of times the big rubber bushings are replaced with a spherical bearing--easy upgrade, requires zero fabrication. Tightens up some wierd dynamic toe changes under braking, etc.

We were using a modified Place Racing front crossmember that we modified.
1) Crossmember, boxes in the front of the car.
2) Skid plate mounting
3) Radius rod mounting
4) Radiator mount
What is crazy is they could have used the opportunity to replace the cheap but less than exceptional radius rod setup, but they didn't. We were using stock rubber bushings.

Anyway, at Oregon trail we bent the front radius rod mounts on the crossmember, as well as a radius rod, lower control arm.

So its getting re-engineered.

I've been shy about using radius rods on the rally cars in general for several reasons:
1) Compliance: In rally, it is not uncommon to hit ruts/bumps/potholes. It is beneficial to have the rubber absorb some of that energy rather than the chassis or the (potentially) unmovable object/rock/rut/mountain.
2) Dust/dirt destroys them. Worried about keeping them clean/lubricated.

When working on it at OT I realized that in tension, which is where the big shocks come (example hitting a rock), the bushing is not compressible anyway. That is to say that the radius rod can be rotated up, down, left, right but is stationary front-to back thanks to a metal spacer. I just hadn't realized the ramifications of that (of course if it did move we'd have gotten some crazy dynamic caster and toe changes). Basically my concerns about lack of compliance were moot.

The dust/dirt thing is helped by sealed/self-lubricating kevlar teflon units, and further aided by use of dust boots (like SEAL-IT, etc.). They won't last forever, but I think will meet our service requirements.

So basically I *think* is open season to use rod ends for this particular part--unless you guys think I'm crazy.

You might be crazy about the part where they have no fore-aft compliance due to some metal spacer...

I can only picture a Datsun 510 T/C rod bushing in my head--I don't know what the Honda one looks like. Is it fundamentally different from a 510 (assuming you can picture the same thing...

And while we're on the subject, do you happen to know how much suspension travel you have (at the wheel) on an EF? I've always thought they had lots (certainly lots more than contemporary Nissans, which isn't saying much), but most of the other know-it-alls around here disagree. Care to settle any bets?

-Dave

Damnit you're right!

The spacer just kept the preload on the bushings correct on the Hondas. I guess we called them T/C or strut rods on the 510.

I actually seem to recall having a special template/caliper/whatever that came with the new 510 bushings (HL510), basically a piece of sheet metal cut into a C that you could use to make sure you have them just tight enough, but not too tight.

So that being said, what are people using for front-end compliance/location? Do rod ends hold up or am I going to be snapping these things? Should I use a rubber rod end?

The Johnny Joint or QA1 Rock End seems very compelling--basically a heim joint but with a rubber/poly race... designed for trucks to handle the kind of shocks that they'd see.

As to Honda suspension travel, I'd have to check. I seem to remember like 135 or 145mm of shock travel. Will check our suspension build sheets to be sure.

krisdahl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The Johnny Joint or QA1 Rock End seems very
> compelling--basically a heim joint but with a
> rubber/poly race... designed for trucks to handle
> the kind of shocks that they'd see.


I can fully endorse the Currie Johnny Joints. I watched a friend of mine accidently get his Jeep 15' in the air in on a razorback at Pismo Dunes. Landed offset on the front end and ripped the steering knuckle completely off. In the process it crushed the 3" x 1/4" wall chromoly axle tube like a straw. It sheared off the bolt but the Johnny Joint survived unscathed and is still in use 3 years later... I'll see if I can find the pictures tonight.

Tim

krisdahl Wrote:
--
> As to Honda suspension travel, I'd have to check.
> I seem to remember like 135 or 145mm of shock
> travel. Will check our suspension build sheets to
> be sure.

Dude MEASURE, there's like a nickel bet riding on the outcome.I say they're like maybe 150 tops, Wisenheimer Colemen says they're 200mm. Serious dude a whole nickel is in the balance!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Since there's cash money at stake, let's clarify where I think the 200mm is... AT THE WHEELS (where it matters).

Front motion ratio on a Civic is about 0.7, rear motion ratio is about 0.75.

That means if the shocks really have 150mm of travel, wheel travel is 214mm up front, 200 in the rear.

Can't wait for my shiny new nickel...

-Dave

eyesoreracing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since there's cash money at stake, let's clarify
> where I think the 200mm is... AT THE WHEELS (where
> it matters).
>
> Front motion ratio on a Civic is about 0.7, rear
> motion ratio is about 0.75.
>
> That means if the shocks really have 150mm of
> travel, wheel travel is 214mm up front, 200 in the
> rear.
>
> Can't wait for my shiny new nickel...

HA!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

If the cars weren't 100 miles away from where I live I'd be able to solve this for you quickly.

So on the Integra, which uses the same dampers as the Civic (different forks, but it will bolt up no problem):

Front Shock Travel (Lo)
173mm - Rally Dampers
135mm - Stock

Rear Shock Travel (Lo)
160mm - Rally Dampers
155mm - Stock

The build sheets I have here for the Civic EG (92-95) and CRX dampers though are different, although I'm not sure why. They all are interchangable, Fronts just need to swap out the forks (different diameter cup). Rears should all be the same.

EG Front Shock Travel
145mm -- Rally Dampers
140mm -- Stock

EG Rear Shock Travel
155mm -- Rally Dampers
150mm -- Stock

CRX Rear Shock Travel
173mm -- Rally Dampers
135mm -- Stock

I'm not sure of the actual wheel travel, will try to measure for you. I know that the bump rubber is going to be shortening it a bit.

> Front Shock Travel (Lo)
> 173mm - Rally Dampers
> 135mm - Stock

173/0.7 = 247mm = 1 nickel
135/0.7 = 192mm = 0 nickels

> Rear Shock Travel (Lo)
> 160mm - Rally Dampers
> 155mm - Stock

160/0.75 = 213 mm = 1 nickel
155/0.75 = 207 mm = 1 nickel

> EG Front Shock Travel
> 145mm -- Rally Dampers
> 140mm -- Stock

145/0.7 = 207mm = 1 nickel
140/0.7 = 200mm = 1 nickel (whew!)

> EG Rear Shock Travel
> 155mm -- Rally Dampers
> 150mm -- Stock

155/0.75 = 207mm = 1 nickel
150/0.75 = 200mm = 1 nickel (whew!)

> CRX Rear Shock Travel
> 173mm -- Rally Dampers
> 135mm -- Stock

175/0.75 = 231mm = 1 nickel
135/0.75 = 180mm = 0 nickels

Looks like JVL owes me 40 cents...

Kris, how many damn rally Hondus do have?

-Dave

Well actually I only own two rally Hondas, the specs are off of the build sheets from the suspension folks.

The only dampers from them that I actually have are the first set for the Integra. I just posted the specs from the Civic/CRX because I had access to them.

As to how many actual Hondas I have, I can't spit out an exact number you without actually thinking about it first.

Kris,

How long have you been rallying Hondas? I've been the lonely champion of Honda rally cars (even though I've never built one myself) for a long time, and all the VW weenies think I'm crazy.

So they have plenty of travel, how about durability of the control arms and bits?


JVL,

How much travel does a stock WRX strut have? How 'bout a JVAB one?

-Dave