Rod Ends

eyesoreracing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Front Shock Travel (Lo)
> > 173mm - Rally Dampers
> > 135mm - Stock
>
> 173/0.7 = 247mm = 1 nickel
> 135/0.7 = 192mm = 0 nickels
>
> > Rear Shock Travel (Lo)
> > 160mm - Rally Dampers
> > 155mm - Stock
>
> 160/0.75 = 213 mm = 1 nickel
> 155/0.75 = 207 mm = 1 nickel
>
> > EG Front Shock Travel
> > 145mm -- Rally Dampers
> > 140mm -- Stock
>
> 145/0.7 = 207mm = 1 nickel
> 140/0.7 = 200mm = 1 nickel (whew!)
>
> > EG Rear Shock Travel
> > 155mm -- Rally Dampers
> > 150mm -- Stock
>
> 155/0.75 = 207mm = 1 nickel
> 150/0.75 = 200mm = 1 nickel (whew!)
>
> > CRX Rear Shock Travel
> > 173mm -- Rally Dampers
> > 135mm -- Stock
>
> 175/0.75 = 231mm = 1 nickel
> 135/0.75 = 180mm = 0 nickels
>
> Looks like JVL owes me 40 cents...
>
> Kris, how many damn rally Hondus do have?
>
> -Dave
>


Dave, you cannot be serious that a serious nickel bet---for all the cars--should be decided when YOU supply some unverified motion ratio of "Um...about" and then decide that the OEM cars have this or that much.
That's silly
And what do we care what the rally dampers yield in wheel travel, the exact terms of the bet was your assertion that "They have 200mm (or 8""
They means ALL.

Actual photographic EVIDENCE of STOCK motion ratios, and STOCK damper travel.
PROOF!

not assertion!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

eyesoreracing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kris,
>
> How long have you been rallying Hondas? I've been
> the lonely champion of Honda rally cars (even
> though I've never built one myself) for a long
> time, and all the VW weenies think I'm crazy.
>
> So they have plenty of travel, how about
> durability of the control arms and bits?
>
>
> JVL,
>
> How much travel does a stock WRX strut have?
160mm


How
> 'bout a JVAB one?

The 50s I have done have 210mm
>
> -Dave

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

> Dave, you cannot be serious that a serious nickel
> bet---for all the cars--should be decided when YOU
> supply some unverified motion ratio of
> "Um...about" and then decide that the OEM cars
> have this or that much.

See, this is how problems start, you're putting words in my mouth. Look back up the page and you won't see the word "um". I approximated the motion ratio with complete confidence!

The "about" part can be staunchly defended by the fact that motion ratio actually changes as the suspension moves through its stroke, so using a motion ratio that's precise to more than one decimal place for a calculation that covers the entire stroke is really just fooling yourself.

> That's silly
> And what do we care what the rally dampers yield
> in wheel travel, the exact terms of the bet was
> your assertion that "They have 200mm (or 8""
> They means ALL.

NO,NO,NO,NO,NO! The exact terms of the bet was "Hondas (meaning double-wishbone Hondas in the context of our conversation) have a lot of travel." You're the one who pinned the 200mm thing on my "lots" assertion.

And what do you mean we don't care about rally dampers? That's ALL we care about. Who gives a shit about street cars?

> Actual photographic EVIDENCE of STOCK motion
> ratios, and STOCK damper travel.
> PROOF!
>
> not assertion!

Photographic evidence won't show anything. I've seen you manipulate photos with your fancy crayons. If you don't want to believe the math, just look at what the crazy orange-haired mofo just did in Oregon (two years in a row). Hondus are good rally cars, good rally cars have lots of travel. Case closed.

I'll accept a nickel, instead of $0.40 since it was a single-statement bet, but you still owe me that nickel. And I know where you live...

-Dave

> > How much travel does a stock WRX strut have?
>
> 160mm
>
>
> How
> > 'bout a JVAB one?
>
> The 50s I have done have 210mm
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca


So a Honda has more stock suspension travel than a WRX....

-D

eyesoreracing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > > How much travel does a stock WRX strut
> have?
> >
> > 160mm
> >
> >
> > How
> > > 'bout a JVAB one?
> >
> > The 50s I have done have 210mm
> >
> > John Vanlandingham
> > Sleezattle, WA, USA
> >
> > Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
> >
> > www.jvab.f4.ca
>
>
> So a Honda has more stock suspension travel than a
> WRX....
>
> -D


If this is correct it's revolutionary. Few years back I was seriously thinking of a Honda for Grp 2 (even though I hate them. Wait that's probably a GOOD reason to choose a rally car) but ASSUMED they had very limited suspension travel, weak shells and tiny control arms etc. BUT if one were to work seriously on a shell, sort out the weak parts with custom links etc this could be the new Golf for North America. Great engines making 200hp stock easy, choice of FD's and LSD, light cars, tons of parts, CHEAP. Dave, you're either a genius or a very high functioning Autistic. So whatta the Honda guys have to say? What's your ideal Honda for rally? Model/year/motor or hybrid motor, gearbox? Suspenders would of course be what I use and reccomend exclusively.

---

Gone fishing

eyesoreracing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> > Actual photographic EVIDENCE of STOCK motion
> > ratios, and STOCK damper travel.
> > PROOF!
> >
> > not assertion!
>
> Photographic evidence won't show anything. I've
> seen you manipulate photos with your fancy
> crayons. If you don't want to believe the math,
> just look at what the crazy orange-haired mofo
> just did in Oregon (two years in a row). Hondus
> are good rally cars, good rally cars have lots of
> travel. Case closed.

HA! not one single photo of a stock damper with a ruler next to it, not a simple sketch showing the world what the actual layout of length of lower arm and shock fixing point, just a vague "somebody told me" it's a whatever motion ratio and you expect hard CASH!!!
>
> I'll accept a nickel, instead of $0.40 since it
> was a single-statement bet, but you still owe me
> that nickel. And I know where you live...

This ain't OVER!!! I know where you WORK! HA!
>
> -Dave

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I really like Hondas even though I rally a Sentra(have a CRX with 220 WHP without going crazy with mods).

Even though the 88-00 Civics seem to have decent suspension travel on paper, I have seen the following happen on the extremely rough CRS events:
-Rear lower lateral control arm ripping the chassis attachment points
-Rear stub axle tearing free from the control arm
-90 Integra with DMS not being able to run high enough(with 14" to miss our boulders
-Finally, I have read some issues with the front "track rods"

Fixable items but less tough than an early Sentra out of the box.

George

---

Civic Rally Car

And B13 Sentras have shit for travel in stock form... Any idea how much you increased front travel on your car? Or is the problem just that they have no compression travel, but raising them up all rally-tall fixes them?

-Dave

david amor Wrote:
> > So a Honda has more stock suspension travel than a
> > WRX....
> >
> > -D
>
> If this is correct it's revolutionary. Few years
> back I was seriously thinking of a Honda for Grp 2
> (even though I hate them. Wait that's probably a
> GOOD reason to choose a rally car) but ASSUMED
> they had very limited suspension travel, weak
> shells and tiny control arms etc. BUT if one were
> to work seriously on a shell, sort out the weak
> parts with custom links etc this could be the new
> Golf for North America. Great engines making 200hp
> stock easy, choice of FD's and LSD, light cars,
> tons of parts, CHEAP. Dave, you're either a genius
> or a very high functioning Autistic. So whatta the
> Honda guys have to say? What's your ideal Honda
> for rally? Model/year/motor or hybrid motor,
> gearbox? Suspenders would of course be what I use
> and reccomend exclusively.
>

I keep waiting for Kris to answer this, since he knows more about this subject than all of us put together, but since I'm the highly functioning autistic, here's my theory:

All the '88-'00 Civics, Integras and CRXeses are basically good bets, but probably the best balance of cheap, light and easy to work with is an EF hatch (the square '88-'91 thing Havas drove). It's nearly as light as the same generation CRX, but has more room inside. It also has big, flat windows that are easily replaced with lexan.

Engine-wise, a warmed-over non-VTEC B20 from a CR-V has the right mix of flexible powerband and easy bolt-in (with a kit) installation. The newer K20 from the RSX/Civic Si makes more power, but its taller and all the mount kits place it lower in the car to clear the hood, leaving a low-hanging oil pan. Its also a bit heavier, I believe.

I'm no expert on the transmissions, but I know there are several close-ratio boxes with factory LSDs available from Japan.

-Dave

> Engine-wise, a warmed-over non-VTEC B20 from a
> CR-V has the right mix of flexible powerband and
> easy bolt-in (with a kit) installation. The newer
> K20 from the RSX/Civic Si makes more power, but
> its taller and all the mount kits place it lower
> in the car to clear the hood, leaving a
> low-hanging oil pan. Its also a bit heavier, I
> believe.
>
> I'm no expert on the transmissions, but I know
> there are several close-ratio boxes with factory
> LSDs available from Japan.
>


FACT;

All hatches are nice, EG hatch is best. I hate lame EF crossmembers. Just my opinion. My EG hatch rally car was 2359 on the scales at LSPR 2005 and that was without crazy lightening like chopping bumper supports or something, and gas, and spill kits and crap.

ITR trans are nice, cheap LS hydro trans for $200 plus a $740 real close ratio gearkit from M Factory and real plate diff for $800 for a SERIOUS SERIOUS box that cost $1740 instead of $1200 for the type-r because of fanboy price gouging. They also NEVER BREAK. True story break for you:

Preface this story by most downshifts I make and all shifts into corners I dont use the clutch, just wam jam it into gear zip no problem.

Ok story, STPR 2005, I have ITR gearbox borrowed from a friend for Tall Pines 2004. Same box. I drive rally car 560 miles from MI to STPR with leaky axle seal in trans so lose all oil, we do rally like that because you can only replace oil seal with Honda ones, parts store ones leak just as bad as bad honda ones. Anyway, do the rally with minimal oil, just filling it at service with 10w30 no worries, and drive the car 560 miles home.

Fast forward to Maine that year SAME gearbox, same leaky oil seal. We go to tech and the seal is LEAKING LIKE CRAZY all over the fire department floor. Tech guy is all "You can't start with leaky seal, it will start fire, also, clean the floor up" I am like EFFFFF because closest Honda dealer is a ways away. So we drive car around the corner and drain remaining oil out of box so it is dry. Go back to tech " we fixed the seal" they inspect "Oh good job guys, no more leak" and then we start the rally with no oil in the box. After first 2 stages it was popping out of gear, so we decide to start filling with 10w before every stage. So every stage I roll up magazine, fill with 1 quart or so of 10w and run stage, half way through every stage it would be dry again and pop out of gear. No problem. This went on for all the stages of the rally, and we kept getting SMOKED OUT from burned oil on cat. At the end the trans case had turned purply and their was smoke pouring OUT of the gearbox vent tube thing. Anyway, so we replaced the seal then did, LSPR, Tall Pines and then sold the car where the box was used for an ENTIRE additional season. No rebuild necessary.

End story break, fact, HONDA boxes decimate all your weak AWD/VW/Whatever nanny boxes.

K Series is pointless and for fanboys. B series is ultra cheap, been done 100x and perfect for rally. You just pick your cheap junkyard motor (B18 LS is best for price to fun), pick your power formula that has been hashed up by so many dudes so many times and put it together for pennies. Then you ram it into rocks and jumps and have tons of pow with a short box for cheap cheap. You can have yourself a nice decent 180HP for sub <1k or you can put a snail on it for the SAME PRICE and make 360 up to you!

I dont have enough suspension know how to know about motion ratio's and crap, on the old civic it had Bilstein's and didn't seem to have lots of travel. New car has Hotbits and seems to have way way more, when I jack up the car that wheel just sits on the ground like "WTF Mate, I aint movin til you get the high lift jack" werd.

Weak shells is a myth knowadays, maybe back in the 90's with 4 point roll bars, but our cages are so serious no worries. I broke a subframe once though, but whatever. You could "weld" front and rear subframes if you were worried about it. Control arms are big and cast downstairs, stamped upstairs but replace them with aftermarket ones for $129 SHIPPED on eBay, I thought they'd break but 7ft airs at Tall Pines, and 3ft curb jump rams at Taco Bell couldn't bring the hurt.

Also unlike the VW farfegnugen more likely to be active and drink arizona ice tea dudes Honda gives you $200 standalone engine management (NOT HONDATA LAME) that WORKS and datalogs and is proven EASY and figured out already by hundreds of dudes, numerous REAL big brake options, awesome giant scoopy hoods for $129 shipped and twice as many ladies because they look way newer (unless is crappy looking EF).

Basically, if you are building a 2WD rally car that is supposed to be serious and NOT using a Honda product, you are either A: Another brand fanboy or B: Uneducated or C: Female

Oh and before someone says "whatever Matt you assbag, you couldn't come to Oregon because your gearbox was broken. Yes that is true but that was mostly my fault, and someway cockbag on Honda Tech who sold me a HOOPTIE Kaaz's fault. Oh and NiggaNel23@hotmail.com who sold me a "MINT B16 HONDA TRANSMISSIONS L@@K" that was actually a GSR.

-Matt (Also 2 Honda Rally (numerous DD) car owner)



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2008 12:13PM by MattJohnston.

Dave,

Sentra B13 Suspension Travel w/rally struts: With the DMS it is around 180 front at the struts and 200+ rear(at the struts again). The limit on the front are the factory axles. I tried more droop travel and the axle popped out.

George

---

Civic Rally Car

MattJohnston Wrote:

> All hatches are nice, EG hatch is best. I hate
> lame EF crossmembers. Just my opinion.

I don't know enough about Honduhs to know the difference. What's up with the crossmember?


> My EG hatch
> rally car was 2359 on the scales at LSPR 2005 and
> that was without crazy lightening like chopping
> bumper supports or something, and gas, and spill
> kits and crap.

Shit, my 510 weighs almost as much...

-Dave

gkd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dave,
>
> Sentra B13 Suspension Travel w/rally struts: With
> the DMS it is around 180 front at the struts and
> 200+ rear(at the struts again). The limit on the
> front are the factory axles. I tried more droop
> travel and the axle popped out.
>
> George
>
>
> Sentra Rally Car


Funny, the same weak point shows up when you lower them too much. SE-R cup guys used to blow up axles all the time.

-Dave

eyesoreracing Wrote:

>
> Shit, my 510 weighs almost as much...
>
> -Dave
>
>

Shit is right, I just corner weighted Al's Volvo 242 at 2395lb...

That was after "death ray" and before the cage goes in but still not anywhere near as heavy as most people think. I'll post all the dirty details later on a new thread with the CG calculations.

Tim

MattJohnston Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Engine-wise, a warmed-over non-VTEC B20 from
> a
> > CR-V has the right mix of flexible powerband
> and
> > easy bolt-in (with a kit) installation. The
> newer
> > K20 from the RSX/Civic Si makes more power,
> but
> > its taller and all the mount kits place it
> lower
> > in the car to clear the hood, leaving a
> > low-hanging oil pan. Its also a bit heavier,
> I
> > believe.
> >
> > I'm no expert on the transmissions, but I
> know
> > there are several close-ratio boxes with
> factory
> > LSDs available from Japan.
> >
>
>
> FACT;
>
> All hatches are nice, EG hatch is best. I hate
> lame EF crossmembers. Just my opinion. My EG hatch
> rally car was 2359 on the scales at LSPR 2005 and
> that was without crazy lightening like chopping
> bumper supports or something, and gas, and spill
> kits and crap.
>
> ITR trans are nice, cheap LS hydro trans for $200
> plus a $740 real close ratio gearkit from M
> Factory and real plate diff for $800 for a SERIOUS
> SERIOUS box that cost $1740 instead of $1200 for
> the type-r because of fanboy price gouging. They
> also NEVER BREAK. True story break for you:
>
> Preface this story by most downshifts I make and
> all shifts into corners I dont use the clutch,
> just wam jam it into gear zip no problem.
>
> Ok story, STPR 2005, I have ITR gearbox borrowed
> from a friend for Tall Pines 2004. Same box. I
> drive rally car 560 miles from MI to STPR with
> leaky axle seal in trans so lose all oil, we do
> rally like that because you can only replace oil
> seal with Honda ones, parts store ones leak just
> as bad as bad honda ones. Anyway, do the rally
> with minimal oil, just filling it at service with
> 10w30 no worries, and drive the car 560 miles
> home.
>
> Fast forward to Maine that year SAME gearbox,
> same leaky oil seal. We go to tech and the seal is
> LEAKING LIKE CRAZY all over the fire department
> floor. Tech guy is all "You can't start with leaky
> seal, it will start fire, also, clean the floor
> up" I am like EFFFFF because closest Honda dealer
> is a ways away. So we drive car around the corner
> and drain remaining oil out of box so it is dry.
> Go back to tech " we fixed the seal" they inspect
> "Oh good job guys, no more leak" and then we start
> the rally with no oil in the box. After first 2
> stages it was popping out of gear, so we decide to
> start filling with 10w before every stage. So
> every stage I roll up magazine, fill with 1 quart
> or so of 10w and run stage, half way through every
> stage it would be dry again and pop out of gear.
> No problem. This went on for all the stages of the
> rally, and we kept getting SMOKED OUT from burned
> oil on cat. At the end the trans case had turned
> purply and their was smoke pouring OUT of the
> gearbox vent tube thing. Anyway, so we replaced
> the seal then did, LSPR, Tall Pines and then sold
> the car where the box was used for an ENTIRE
> additional season. No rebuild necessary.
>
> End story break, fact, HONDA boxes decimate all
> your weak AWD/VW/Whatever nanny boxes.
>
> K Series is pointless and for fanboys. B series is
> ultra cheap, been done 100x and perfect for rally.
> You just pick your cheap junkyard motor (B18 LS is
> best for price to fun), pick your power formula
> that has been hashed up by so many dudes so many
> times and put it together for pennies. Then you
> ram it into rocks and jumps and have tons of pow
> with a short box for cheap cheap. You can have
> yourself a nice decent 180HP for sub <1k or you
> can put a snail on it for the SAME PRICE and make
> 360 up to you!
>
> I dont have enough suspension know how to know
> about motion ratio's and crap, on the old civic it
> had Bilstein's and didn't seem to have lots of
> travel. New car has Hotbits and seems to have way
> way more, when I jack up the car that wheel just
> sits on the ground like "WTF Mate, I aint movin
> til you get the high lift jack" werd.
>
> Weak shells is a myth knowadays, maybe back in the
> 90's with 4 point roll bars, but our cages are so
> serious no worries. I broke a subframe once
> though, but whatever. You could "weld" front and
> rear subframes if you were worried about it.
> Control arms are big and cast downstairs, stamped
> upstairs but replace them with aftermarket ones
> for $129 SHIPPED on eBay, I thought they'd break
> but 7ft airs at Tall Pines, and 3ft curb jump rams
> at Taco Bell couldn't bring the hurt.
>
> Also unlike the VW farfegnugen more likely to be
> active and drink arizona ice tea dudes Honda gives
> you $200 standalone engine management (NOT HONDATA
> LAME) that WORKS and datalogs and is proven EASY
> and figured out already by hundreds of dudes,
> numerous REAL big brake options, awesome giant
> scoopy hoods for $129 shipped and twice as many
> ladies because they look way newer (unless is
> crappy looking EF).
>
> Basically, if you are building a 2WD rally car
> that is supposed to be serious and NOT using a
> Honda product, you are either A: Another brand
> fanboy or B: Uneducated or C: Female
>
> Oh and before someone says "whatever Matt you
> assbag, you couldn't come to Oregon because your
> gearbox was broken. Yes that is true but that was
> mostly my fault, and someway cockbag on Honda Tech
> who sold me a HOOPTIE Kaaz's fault. Oh and
> NiggaNel2
> 3@hotmail
> ;.com who sold me a "MINT B16
> HONDA TRANSMISSIONS L@@K" that was actually a
> GSR.
>
> -Matt (Also 2 Honda Rally (numerous DD) car owner)
>
>
>
> Edited 4 times. Last edit at Jun 16, 2008 by
> MattJohnston.


Wow. How come most everyone's down on the hondas??? Wanna trade me your car for a financially impossible to maintain open class STi?

---

Gone fishing