Looking for any and all advice on suiting a Turbo II Rx7
Posted by low impedance
low impedance Alex M. Staidle Elite Moderator Location: Colorado Springs, CO Join Date: 02/08/2007 Age: Settling Down Posts: 77 Rally Car: 1987 Mazda Rx7 |
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john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Professional Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
low impedance Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > so its sounding like used Michelins are the way to > go then. Yep. Hey I was looking very carefully at the 2nd Gen suspenders at the yard yesterday, and see a few things you might consider doing to make living with the suspension easier and cheaper. 1st: Like a bunch of other cars done about that time, the lower shock mounting is a big fat stupid pin hanging out un-spported in single shear. Since it is just hanging out it has to be FAT and that makes using off the shelf Bilsteins a big problem since the lower eyelet has a spherical bearing and the biggest ID is 15mm and the fat-ass pin is very likely around 20mm. The choices are therefore find something whatever with a big eyelet and either get something unsuitable with nobody knows what for valving and pray it ain't a waste of time and money OR buy some STUPID expensive shocks that you don't know what the valving is but "everybody" says they're fantastic---which they better be for maybe 700-900 per shock and PRAY you never kill one. OR!!! Hack the big stupid pin off and weld on 2 D shaped ears and make your own mounts so its in double shear, then buy off the shelf Bilsteins valve according to some chart. And then you can afford replacements and do re-valves for $65. While looking I see the speaker mounts, essentially big turrets which it was recommended you remove by drilling the spot welds. Here's a thought: Double skin them and add reinforcing and use them as the rear towers. Chopping away the old mounting position and maybe making an eyelet top fixing and you're done. This lets you use a longer center to center shock and solves the limited rear travel issue. You could doubtless drill out the spotwelds in a car in the Spare Parts Storage Depots (aka the junk yard) and they will probably stack atop like tater chips. LONG TRAVEL is good on RWD cars, you use the softer spring rates to get grip--while still having travelk left for bumps and droop for grip in whacky situations. It's BRILLIANT idea. Front you'd want a bit more thravel than stock but maybe not more than an ich or so. Front looked like about 160mm so 185 to 190mm maybe. > > ~A.M.S. > > "Some people are afraid of heights, not me. I'm > afraid of widths" John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
low impedance Alex M. Staidle Elite Moderator Location: Colorado Springs, CO Join Date: 02/08/2007 Age: Settling Down Posts: 77 Rally Car: 1987 Mazda Rx7 |
john vanlandingham Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Hack the big stupid pin off and weld on 2 D shaped > ears and make your own mounts so its in double > shear, then buy off the shelf Bilsteins valve > according to some chart. And then you can afford > replacements and do re-valves for $65. ill probably go with the double shear idea > > While looking I see the speaker mounts, > essentially big turrets which it was recommended > you remove by drilling the spot welds. > Here's a thought: Double skin them and add > reinforcing and use them as the rear towers. > Chopping away the old mounting position and maybe > making an eyelet top fixing and you're done. > This lets you use a longer center to center shock > and solves the limited rear travel issue. > You could doubtless drill out the spotwelds in a > car in the Spare Parts Storage Depots (aka the > junk yard) and they will probably stack atop like > tater chips. whoa, Meguiver. that is extremely a good idea. > Front you'd want a bit more thravel than stock but > maybe not more than an ich or so. Front looked > like about 160mm so 185 to 190mm maybe. what would give me more travel? ~A.M.S. "Some people are afraid of heights, not me. I'm afraid of widths" |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Professional Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
low impedance Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > john vanlandingham Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > ill probably go with the double shear idea Good, mod once the more or less permanent part and the the consumable part use an off the shelf thing, that's being smart. > > > > > > > While looking I see the speaker mounts, > > essentially big turrets which it was > and they will probably stack atop > like > > tater chips. > > > whoa, Meguiver. that is extremely a good idea. I'm full of great ideas, and cheap ones too. > > > > Front you'd want a bit more thravel than > stock but > > maybe not more than an ich or so. Front > looked > > like about 160mm so 185 to 190mm maybe. > > > what would give me more travel? Why my JVAB Soooper Bitchin Bilstein struts, of course. > > > > > ~A.M.S. > > "Some people are afraid of heights, not me. I'm > afraid of widths" John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Doivi Clarkinen Banned Super Moderator Location: the end of the universe Join Date: 02/12/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,432 Rally Car: 1980 Opel Ascona B |
john vanlandingham Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Like a bunch of other cars done about that time, > the lower shock mounting is a big fat stupid pin > hanging out un-spported in single shear. > Since it is just hanging out it has to be FAT and > that makes using off the shelf Bilsteins a big > problem since the lower eyelet has a spherical > bearing and the biggest ID is 15mm and the fat-ass > pin is very likely around 20mm. > John, the lower pin was never ever a problem on Hintz's car and the DMS shocks had a spherical bearing in them so obviously somethings available to fit. I don't remember the size of the pin, I'll have to go look it up, but it may not actually be as fat as you are thing. Then again, it might. It's not as big as a Mitsu, though. > While looking I see the speaker mounts, > essentially big turrets which it was recommended > you remove by drilling the spot welds. > Here's a thought: Double skin them and add > reinforcing and use them as the rear towers. > Chopping away the old mounting position and maybe > making an eyelet top fixing and you're done. > This lets you use a longer center to center shock > and solves the limited rear travel issue. > You could doubtless drill out the spotwelds in a > car in the Spare Parts Storage Depots (aka the > junk yard) and they will probably stack atop like > tater chips. > > LONG TRAVEL is good on RWD cars, you use the > softer spring rates to get grip--while still > having travelk left for bumps and droop for grip > in whacky situations. > > It's BRILLIANT idea. Sorry, but it's a bad idea. Those speaker mounts are really thin sheet metal and you could knock them off with a hammer without even drilling any spotwelds. If you were going to extend the shock mounts up I would remove the speaker mounts first and build up something proper. Having said that, the shocks are not really what limit the travel in the rear. You can get all the travel you need using the stock mounting points. The geometry of the rear suspension arms and the axles are what limit the usable travel. The RX7 has a lot of camber change through the travel in the rear. The amount of travel available is actually quite decent. Besides, he's building a hillclimb car and doesn't really need crazy amounts of suspension travel. > Front you'd want a bit more thravel than stock but > maybe not more than an ich or so. Front looked > like about 160mm so 185 to 190mm maybe. > Yeah, that sounds about right, I'll see if I still have those drawings somewhere. The front struts bolt up to the hubs with ears so JVAB ought to be able to make up some stut housings easily. Make sure to make the ears longer to move the shock away from the tire enough for spring clearance. |
cablerhodes Cable Rhodes Elite Moderator Location: Boise, ID Join Date: 01/26/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 43 Rally Car: Mazda RX-7 Turbo |
I agree with Dave, the speaker mounts are way tooo thin. The rear camber is adjustable, so you can dial a bunch of height in. The rear has a bunch of travel, I've never used it all. The southwest is very rough, which is where my car started out. The front could use a little more travel, but isn't worth spending the money to make it happen. IF, and only IF you want to mount your shocks higher in the rear, consider running your cage in a way that allows you to mount the rear shocks through the original mounts to the cage. I designed my cage to do this, but found later I got plenty of travel in the rear. These car really rock as rally cars, I'm considering building another based on a FEW upgrades, there's nothing built like it to date. Volvos are great, but as expensive to make fast and are way heavier, without the cost advantage.
Cable Rhodes Boise, Idaho '87 Mazda RX-7 Turbo |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Professional Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
cablerhodes Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > I agree with Dave, the speaker mounts are way tooo > thin. The rear camber is adjustable, so you can > dial a bunch of height in. The rear has a bunch of > travel, I've never used it all. The southwest is > very rough, which is where my car started out. The > front could use a little more travel, but isn't > worth spending the money to make it happen. IF, > and only IF you want to mount your shocks higher > in the rear, consider running your cage in a way > that allows you to mount the rear shocks through > the original mounts to the cage. I designed my > cage to do this, but found later I got plenty of > travel in the rear. These car really rock as rally > cars, I'm considering building another based on a > FEW upgrades, there's nothing built like it to > date. Volvos are great, but as expensive to make > fast and are way heavier, without the cost > advantage. > Yeah way heavier at maybe 2550 lbs, dem Mazda must be way lighter huh? And since there are plenty of 200-400 dollar Volvos, amn the Mazda must PAY people to take their cars away. And yeah probably not worth it to spend $1800 for suspension all-round with decent travel, that foolish when you could save a pile of dough and get short suspension for $1800 Cable you like your Mazda, we know that, we know this dude here likes his, nobody's trying to talk him outta tha, they're OK, but U think you're laying on the stuff a bit thick. What does your Mazda weigh? What does a "reasonably warm" real rebuild cost for rotary? And how much if the rotor housings are whupped? If you are going to assert certain advantages, ssms like you might back the assertion up with some figure an comparisons. IK? > Cable Rhodes > Boise, Idaho > '87 Mazda RX-7 Turbo John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Doivi Clarkinen Banned Super Moderator Location: the end of the universe Join Date: 02/12/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,432 Rally Car: 1980 Opel Ascona B |
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low impedance Alex M. Staidle Elite Moderator Location: Colorado Springs, CO Join Date: 02/08/2007 Age: Settling Down Posts: 77 Rally Car: 1987 Mazda Rx7 |
my biggest reasoning regarding the rx7 is that it is the car i am the most comfortable with. I have owned plenty, repaired plenty and find the parts to be extremely cheap. I have been tinkering with them since i could drive.
I like the merkur but i never see them at junkyards or on craigslist, especially for cheap. Plus i know nothing about them. And piston engines aren't my comfort zone. I might actually consider the Volvo one day. I would love the GP5 one for sale but i dont have the total amount at the moment (buying a house) ~A.M.S. "Some people are afraid of heights, not me. I'm afraid of widths" |
Pete Pete Remner Mod Moderator Location: Cleveland, Ohio Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 2,022 |
> cablerhodes Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > These car really rock as > rally > > cars, If you're 5'7. They're a wee bit tight on the interior if you're north of 6'. john vanlandingham Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > And since there are plenty of 200-400 dollar > Volvos, amn the Mazda must PAY people to take > their cars away. Actutally, for the FC chassis, they kinda do. I had no trouble finding one for $50 that I could scavenge the front suspension/crossmember from. As a bonus, it was running. Box full of neutrals, no straight body panels, half the glass cracked, but the suspension was still there. Body's rust free too, so I have half a mind to turn it into a Lemons car. (This year's Detroit-ish Lemons winner was a Supra, they got around the interior room problem by cutting off everything above the beltline and installing a half-height Lexan windshield.) > What does a "reasonably warm" real rebuild cost > for rotary? And how much if the rotor housings are > whupped? FC engines can be had in good running shape but with blown coolant seals for pretty cheap. They're really light on rotor housings, not like the earlier engines that could roach them out in 100k. Keep buying core engines until you have enough of what you need. I think all-told my current build is right around $800. One $200 core engine with blown coolant O-rings (came with 6-puck clutch and an aluminum flywheel, nice touch), a set of Turbo rotor and side housings for $100 that had broken the engine mount off (this was admittedly a really good deal, and my chassis doesn't use those mounts anyway), $400 worth of apex seals and springs (Atkins Rotary, they can handle high RPM just fine) and I make my own coolant seals (about $10/engine) and use Harbor Freight O-rings and Right Stuff sealant for everything else. I could have done it cheaper still, but the Turbo housings were in such good shape that I wanted to use new apex seals. They're not Dixie Cup engines, either. At least, so far they're not. Pete Remner Cleveland, Ohio 1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing) 1978 Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver. |
eyesoreracing Dave Coleman Godlike Moderator Location: Long Beach, CA Join Date: 05/13/2007 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 448 Rally Car: Mazda3, SE-R Spec-V, 510 |
Good, running FCs are free in California and presumably anywhere else that cars have to pass smog tests. You frequently see used car lots with FCs that won't pass smog and nobody there knows how to make them run right. They're usually asking money for them, but you can frequently talk them down to nothing.
FCs make really good Lemons cars. Those and 944s are really fast, but the 944s usually can't go the distance. Like any rotary, though, cooling is the name of the game. -D |
cablerhodes Cable Rhodes Elite Moderator Location: Boise, ID Join Date: 01/26/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 43 Rally Car: Mazda RX-7 Turbo |
John, look, I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you. Pete made my point about the engine, and you don't HAVE to spend 1800 dollars on suspension. I did it for half, and am still running the SAME stuff to date.Plus, John, where are you getting more travel? You talk (presumably about your goods, since you are selling suspension) as if yours is much longer travel, but how are you doing that on an RX-7 without changing other stuff? That's a claim I would like to see backed up. I would want at least 2-3" more out of mine to spend $1800 as opposed to $900. As far as varying opinions go, mine's as valid as yours. Don't take it too personal, I like my stuff as much as you like yours. The guy did ask about building an RX-7 turbo, which I have done and run successfully.
Besides, if people are giving them away, why wouldn't you want to build one, considering it's rally record and wealth of aftermarket parts, not to mention availability of parts vehicles which are also evidently free. BTW Alex, if you'd like to talk more about building on of these off forum, send me a PM. I'd be glad to give you a call. Cable Rhodes Boise, Idaho '87 Mazda RX-7 Turbo |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Professional Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Cable, not interesteted in a pissing matcgh either.
The guy HAS a RX7 of both 1st and second gen , he wants to build it, fine and dandy. What's to argue about? I was talking issue with your grounds re weight of a Volvo, which we see is wrong, and cost which we see if more or less moot since both can be had as starter cars for near free. A cage costs what it costs, and suspension . good or bad, costs what it will cost, so that's the same. As for RX7s record, I wasn't aware there was much of one in rally except in one or two countries: USA and Canada, and that's certainly not something that I weigh particularly heavily. Be that is it is, the guy has one and wants to build it, why don't you share your knowledge here so the other RX7 guys and the lurkers can see and compare. So what insert and shock did you use? What was the valving? What travel? What spring rate and length? John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
low impedance Alex M. Staidle Elite Moderator Location: Colorado Springs, CO Join Date: 02/08/2007 Age: Settling Down Posts: 77 Rally Car: 1987 Mazda Rx7 |
Well i think i have a plan of attack in order. Im getting the cage done locally first and foremost. In the meantime im building a budget naturally asspirated engine (and too test some tricks for future use) to get my self and and driving. Then i will improve on thing as needed from there.
Suspension is still open to be finalized but i have several ideas running through my head that i can pursue. Anyone know where i can find bilstein inserts and their specs? ~A.M.S. "Some people are afraid of heights, not me. I'm afraid of widths" |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Professional Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
low impedance Wrote:
> > Anyone know where i can find bilstein inserts and > their specs? Well I have inserts, all kinds of inserts. Specs tho. what specs you need. Thinking of making your own strut tubes? You understand how these upsidedown things work and are assembled? Do you understand the point of using 4340 THICKwall Chrome moly steel rather than just dropping some ol inserts into thin OEM tubes? Just asking, now. > > ~A.M.S. > > "Some people are afraid of heights, not me. I'm > afraid of widths" John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
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