electric power steering pump

Quote
fliz
AC location has an oil cooler in the way. And doesn't fix the problem of the suction tube vibrating itself out of the VW pump.

(1) Put the Oil cooler in front of the radiator where it belongs

(2) Never heard of anyone having trouble with the return hose vibrating loose....

(3) This should be HIGH on the list of projects for TSS---build brackets for moving the horrible VW PS location UP to AC or alternator location...

(4) Worried about over spinning the pump with high RPM, get or make yourself an underdrive pulley

Quote
Josh Wimpey
(3) This should be HIGH on the list of projects for TSS---build brackets for moving the horrible VW PS location UP to AC or alternator location...

Yes this really isn't that hard. Here's a OEM MKIII Alternator/AC bracket. Add 1 simple bracket and the pump is in the right spot. Funny enough using a VR water pump pulley puts everything perfectly in alignment, no milling necessary. NOTE the additional bracket to pivot the alternator is due to carbs that hang where the alternator is, not required if your using OEM intake.

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-Jason

A lot of cars are using electric pumps nowadays, including the new Mustang and F-150. Not to mention all the hybrids out there... can't drive a pump if the engine's stopped. (Hybrids are a good place to source OEM-grade electric water pumps, too, if you're into that sort of thing)

I can't wait to see a CHEAP controller for all of the (literally) millions of GM electric power steering columns out there. They use them in damned near everything anymore. Not having to pump all that fluid around makes for less power loss. Harder on the steering shafts, though



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2010 08:06PM by Pete.

Quote
Josh Wimpey

Quote
fliz
AC location has an oil cooler in the way. And doesn't fix the problem of the suction tube vibrating itself out of the VW pump.

(1) Put the Oil cooler in front of the radiator where it belongs

(2) Never heard of anyone having trouble with the return hose vibrating loose....

(3) This should be HIGH on the list of projects for TSS---build brackets for moving the horrible VW PS location UP to AC or alternator location...

(4) Worried about over spinning the pump with high RPM, get or make yourself an underdrive pulley

I suppose reengineering the oil cooler and buying new hoses is easier/cheaper than going to an elec. PS pump.

I've had the metal suction tube fall out of two PS pumps now. For the last season, I've used a zip tie around the pump to keep it in place, although it still drains out overnight.

Quote
Pete
A lot of cars are using electric pumps nowadays, including the new Mustang and F-150. Not to mention all the hybrids out there... can't drive a pump if the engine's stopped. (Hybrids are a good place to source OEM-grade electric water pumps, too, if you're into that sort of thing)

I can't wait to see a CHEAP controller for all of the (literally) millions of GM electric power steering columns out there. They use them in damned near everything anymore. Not having to pump all that fluid around makes for less power loss. Harder on the steering shafts, though

I thought all the Ford stuff was electric columns as well. I think Honda went to an electric PS rack but like you said no one has made a cheap controller for them yet.

See the big blob of aluminum? that's the electric PS in the new Mustang, image is
from this post...

http://forums.corner-carvers.com/showpost.php?p=873121&postcount=12

in this thread...

http://forums.corner-carvers.com/showthread.php?t=44217

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SteveL
This is the point in the killing spree when you really should turn the gun on yourself

Do not lower the voltage to the pump that is the death of electric motors. Higher Amps at lower voltages = burned brushes.

My car had these big huge carburetor things where the AC compressor would have gone so no room, the electric pump stat on the passenger side frame rail where the CIS and air filter once sat.

Bushore has his on the driver's frame rail, in the space freed up by moving the battery to the back of the car. Looks nice, shorter hoses and the only fab was an extension on the bracket for the reservoir to get it higher than the pump.

The Mini pump is the most modern and readily available/adaptable one that I've found. Many current electric pumps are difficult to adapt because they require CAN communication with the ECU to get running. The Mini only requires some basic hookups. Some info I've collected and learned:

On the 2 pin connector, pin 2 goes directly to battery positive terminal through a 100a fusible link located on the bottom of the fuse box under the hood (aka terminal 30). Pin 1 goes directly to battery negative terminal (aka terminal 31). These two wires provide the heavy current to run the pump. Since these are direct (not switched) battery voltage should be present at all times between these two wires.

On the three pin connector, pin 1 should have battery + when the key is on (aka terminal 15). Pin 2 goes to the alternator and should reflect the output of the alternator when the engine is running (this signal is used to tell the pump electronics that the engine is running). The pump will not run if it thinks the engine is off unless its bad). Also the voltage found here must be no lower than 9vdc and no higher than 16vdc; the pump will shut down if outside of this range.
Pin 3 is used to communicate pump errors on the diagnostic bus.

The pump operates in two modes: standby and full output.When the car is idling and no steering demand is present the pump is in standby mode; it runs at 80% capacity and an rpm of 3500...the current draw is 7amps +/- 10%.

When the steering is turned, the pump senses a pressure change in the hydraulics..this change causes the pump to switch to full output and runs at 100% and at an rpm of 4500.

If the steering is turned to either end of its travel, or if the wheel hits a curb, the current to the pump is momentarily reduced to 30amps.


If the temperature gets to 230f (110c) the operating current of the pump will be reduced.

The pump contains the controller and will produce the following errors if a problem is detected.
Power supply fault
Electric motor fault
Fault caused by excess temperature
Control module fault

1.25 cm^3 / rev
Max 4200rpm
Max 105 BAR
Max 120 Amps (11.5 Amps avg)

Pin 2 only looks for a signal to confirm the engine is running, but doesn't do anything further. If that power happens to be removed, the pump stays on and functions normally (presumably so someone doesn't crash when their engine turns off?).

We saw a maximum of about 60amps draw, and up to about 500psi (at full lock), similar to the stock pulley-driven pump. Normal turning was probably 30-40 amps and 100-200psi (also similar).



As mentioned, the GM electric columns are another option. Search ebay for Vauxhall / Opel columns from europe. Pretty cheap, even to import. Similar to the pumps above, the trick is finding ones from cars that use dumb electronics to drive them. I would hazard that many more recent units are prohibitively difficult to adapt. The euro ones are a slam dunk, because this guy http://www.rallywiz.com/Shop/index.php sells control boxes pre-made to generate the simple signals.

Let us know what you end up doing!

Andris Laivins

FWIW, I've heard not good things about the MINI powersteering setup.

A local team using one at Pikes Peak on a basically stock Mini last year was continually overheating the setup and the pump would shut off/reduce power assist (usually at inopportune times). PP is mostly tarmac, so I'd expect on a car that'll see dirt, you're apt to have problems since you usually see more steering wheel movement on dirt.

I say if you're after the power savings, just ditch it all together and hit the gym and you'll drop ~10-15 lbs off the nose of the car. I ran no PS in my Mazda GTX and couldn't tell the difference once up to speed (had it on there but kept throwing belts...but never could tell when it happened). I've been thinking about ditching it on my Evo, but haven't had the time to try it out. I think the Evo PS system is way too boosted, so maybe I'd just be happy with underdriving it.

Dave

Quote
andris
The Mini pump is the most modern and readily available/adaptable one that I've found. Many current electric pumps are difficult to adapt because they require CAN communication with the ECU to get running. The Mini only requires some basic hookups. Some info I've collected and learned:

On the 2 pin connector, pin 2 goes directly to battery positive terminal through a 100a fusible link located on the bottom of the fuse box under the hood (aka terminal 30). Pin 1 goes directly to battery negative terminal (aka terminal 31). These two wires provide the heavy current to run the pump. Since these are direct (not switched) battery voltage should be present at all times between these two wires.

On the three pin connector, pin 1 should have battery + when the key is on (aka terminal 15). Pin 2 goes to the alternator and should reflect the output of the alternator when the engine is running (this signal is used to tell the pump electronics that the engine is running). The pump will not run if it thinks the engine is off unless its bad). Also the voltage found here must be no lower than 9vdc and no higher than 16vdc; the pump will shut down if outside of this range.
Pin 3 is used to communicate pump errors on the diagnostic bus.

The pump operates in two modes: standby and full output.When the car is idling and no steering demand is present the pump is in standby mode; it runs at 80% capacity and an rpm of 3500...the current draw is 7amps +/- 10%.

When the steering is turned, the pump senses a pressure change in the hydraulics..this change causes the pump to switch to full output and runs at 100% and at an rpm of 4500.

If the steering is turned to either end of its travel, or if the wheel hits a curb, the current to the pump is momentarily reduced to 30amps.


If the temperature gets to 230f (110c) the operating current of the pump will be reduced.

The pump contains the controller and will produce the following errors if a problem is detected.
Power supply fault
Electric motor fault
Fault caused by excess temperature
Control module fault

1.25 cm^3 / rev
Max 4200rpm
Max 105 BAR
Max 120 Amps (11.5 Amps avg)

Pin 2 only looks for a signal to confirm the engine is running, but doesn't do anything further. If that power happens to be removed, the pump stays on and functions normally (presumably so someone doesn't crash when their engine turns off?).

We saw a maximum of about 60amps draw, and up to about 500psi (at full lock), similar to the stock pulley-driven pump. Normal turning was probably 30-40 amps and 100-200psi (also similar).



As mentioned, the GM electric columns are another option. Search ebay for Vauxhall / Opel columns from europe. Pretty cheap, even to import. Similar to the pumps above, the trick is finding ones from cars that use dumb electronics to drive them. I would hazard that many more recent units are prohibitively difficult to adapt. The euro ones are a slam dunk, because this guy http://www.rallywiz.com/Shop/index.php sells control boxes pre-made to generate the simple signals.

Let us know what you end up doing!

Andris Laivins

This is GREAT info...muchas gracias!

I was thinking of calling you to lead you to this thread. I had no idea it could be set up that way.

Might want to put a fresh air hose from the front of the car pointed at the pump. The factory setup has a small cooling fan blowing on the motor.

Yeah, I'm thinking I'll just try it at the "80%" setting on a switch at first, which might also help with the slight system pressure differences between the two systems. It's gonna be right behind the right headlight so hopefully with it only being active on stage, not running full tilt and in air flow might not have any overheating issues.

Why don't you just pull out the press-in fitting that's leaking, tap the hole, and thread in a more robust fitting. Seems like you're adding a lot of complicated nonsense to fix a leak.

I can second the warning about Mini steering overheating. I've experienced the same issue. Add a cooler if you do it.

Electric or belt: Don't try to adjust pressure by slowing down the pump. There is a pressure relief valve somewhere regulating pressure. Pump speed ensures sufficient volume to maintain that pressure when you do fast steering inputs. Slow down the pump and you'll outrun the pump when you do fast steering inputs at low engine speeds. Like when you're tank-slapping down the trail with your foot on the clutch trying to stay out of the trees. Great time for your steering to suddenly get heavy, eh?

Also, Mazda3s all have electric PS pumps. 15 pounds of motor to drive your pump vs. a 2-pound pump for the belt-driven ones. Think about it. There are much simpler options. On Dave Henderson's Mazda3, we ditched the electric pump and put on a belt-driven MX-5 pump. If you're dead set on making things complicated, Barrett at All-Wheels Driven might still have the electric pump in a junk pile somewhere.

-Dave

Quote
eyesoreracing
Why don't you just pull out the press-in fitting that's leaking, tap the hole, and thread in a more robust fitting. Seems like you're adding a lot of complicated nonsense to fix a leak.

I can second the warning about Mini steering overheating. I've experienced the same issue. Add a cooler if you do it.

Electric or belt: Don't try to adjust pressure by slowing down the pump. There is a pressure relief valve somewhere regulating pressure. Pump speed ensures sufficient volume to maintain that pressure when you do fast steering inputs. Slow down the pump and you'll outrun the pump when you do fast steering inputs at low engine speeds. Like when you're tank-slapping down the trail with your foot on the clutch trying to stay out of the trees. Great time for your steering to suddenly get heavy, eh?

Also, Mazda3s all have electric PS pumps. 15 pounds of motor to drive your pump vs. a 2-pound pump for the belt-driven ones. Think about it. There are much simpler options. On Dave Henderson's Mazda3, we ditched the electric pump and put on a belt-driven MX-5 pump. If you're dead set on making things complicated, Barrett at All-Wheels Driven might still have the electric pump in a junk pile somewhere.

-Dave

Actually the loss of assist in the fast steering input scene is---according to Ford Mortorsport---but what the hell do those hosers know, huh?---- a volume question. These pumps make full pressure for full assist at fawkin idle---amazing pumps really--- but the things kinda like the problem of shocks hitting sqaure shoulder pot holes-passing volume instantly so they don't hydraulic-lock.

If it doesn't pass the volume, it doesn't assist.
Volume Volume Volume.