Settin' up Subie Front diff preload?

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Gravel Spray

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john vanlandingham

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Gravel Spray
K And don't use any oil but the Carbonetic stuff....I see you have been using the redline shock "poof" bad stuff, bad bad bad!

Use that and you'll have a Shock when your gears go Poof!

And another shock when you when you're money goes POOF when you fix the box.

One word for shock poof oil: excessive aeration

yes, like beat egg whites! Plus they have blended in parafin wax(the shock "proof", under prolonged centrifical force it become separated and starts to gather in needle brg cages, packes them solid and acts as a squeegee. It also clogs the syncro grooves so they float on the cone, shit is useless.

holy hell, that oil sounds awesome *facepalm*

Is it good for anything? Or was it a failed idea?

Thanks Pete...I'll do just that. In the rear I've been using their oil, so I'll do the same up front.


Haven't took apart the rear yet, I'll try that at the next service (testing it, I mean)....desert storm is 2 weeks away.


I may have my guy Lars give you a call about setting up the front diff...obviously I want to get it right the first time and not have to go back in there in a month. Hell, I'm going over there tonight and we're gonna try to button this thing up in the next day or two, so you might get a call today. I'll send you a PM.

thanks again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2011 02:36PM by Jon Burke.

In 2007 this French guy calls me up, he works for ET&S racing fuels and states that they had just signed a deal to be fuel supplier for some AMA MC series so they are going to build a plant for blending fuels in the USA and want to start doing NASCAR, Road Racing, and rally fuels as well. Two weeks later the guy calls me up again from Seatac and is on his way to the shop, wants to learn about American rallying and fuel requirements. Long story short dude is a petroleum engineer and wants to talk about engine architecture within the RA rules, how stupid Subaru long bore short stroke is for restricted turbo application, and how AWESOME the Mitsubishi small bore long stroke is for restricted turbo. They had blends for each in FIA GN and offered us some special fuel for each…for free to test. >>>>ANYWAY...while in the engine room at the shop he spots an old dusty can of Redline shock poof on the shelf(we had already stopped using it at that point), dude rolls his eyes and I can see the "stupid Americans" look on his face then proceeds to explain how "stupid" the shit is and why, as JVL said, excessive aeration due to blend and heavy weight, wax that separates and clogs, and the fact that when the wax is IN the oil it’s taking up space from OIL, which prevents OIL from doing it's job LUBRICATING and COOLING the gears working surface as well as the brgs. Imagine smearing pottery clay on your gears, how’s the oil going to do it’s job? I would imagine the stuff was made for highly stressed gearboxes in short sprint type events where the box is ripped every event, in THERORY is sounds good but the reality it doesn’t work, especially for a rally gearbox. The French guys name is Bruno Philippon, and he sent another guy from France a few weeks later, Jarome, with about 55 ENGLISH gallons(not the cheapy american "gallons", half for Subrau called US RALLY 2, and half for Mitsubishi called US RALLY 1. Jarome looked at our cal files for the cars and sugested a few things for the dyno and predicted 10-15% gain. We never used the fuel, 2008 was bad for the rally biz so we never got a chance to put it to work, but meeting those guys was cool, learned a lot talking with them for a day or two.

Man I just rambled on like a lunatic...John...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2011 02:46PM by Gravel Spray.

Pete, you have a PM. or just send me an email or call when you get a chance.

burkejon at yahoo.com

415-
336-
0783

THX

Haha, it's ok Pete, it's a good story.

So is the fuel still good? How fast does sealed race gas go bad?

so, I think the whole group should see Kiyo's reply and maybe if a few more rally anarchy peeps get edumacated, that's a good thing, so here's his reply (and you'll just have to deal with the bad japanese ESL)

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I think your friend who commented for you below , driving EVO right?

Yes if EVO I strongly recommend to set up little weaker with change disks order. if not yes happen which he explain to you below.

Unfortunately EVO has very weak drivetrains. the diff size is much samller than SUBARU LSD, which is only size same as HONDA civic. also the spacing is very limited no space to have enough oil and strong enough casing. so that once have big initial with high angle at tire all of stress gose to diff which is most weak point then inner unit snapped.
this is due to EVO have FF layout so transmission and transfar case size is very small.

However SUBARU unit has enough size also designe is similar to rear LSD enough strong to hold big hp.
so that only we recommend EVO front and HONDA K20 tranny which same reason we recommend and ship out with lower clamp set up. other than that ship out with regular, or some case the customer want to make weaker set up and running better we did. some of Lotus owner love little weaker becuase Lotus is too sensetive handring need more soft and dull then finally look up stong. this is very hard to set up for ordinal metal LSD however could do easy with CARBON LSD. the carbon disk grab very well even under low initial so at initial make weak set up and working smoothly and slowly then once needs look up 100% diff look up stong and long time.

For SUBARU Set up does not need to make weaker at original, if you want do it, but I would like to recommend to you use with original consition and if you feel some unlike swich the disk and try to run wiht different set up.

it that all clear for you?

KIYO

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Here is what my friend wrote to me about his experience with you diff....he's built a lot of rally cars and has a lot of experience:

"Hey on the Carbonetic diff, what ever you do don't just stick it in "out of the box", if you do the carbon pucks will fail (and fuck everything up)within 50 stage miles. You will need to reorientate the plates to reduce the load. The carbonetic action is real nice and smooth but unlike a metal plate LSD the carbon plate pucks become grippier the hotter they get and will rip themselves apart, if that doesn't happen first the entire drum will explode, blow the end right off it."


Let me know what you think....Lars can certainly adjust the plates if we need to, the transmission is still open.

Jon

so, first thing....I've bought a bunch of stuff from him already, he's not trying to sell me anything here, so that's good. 2nd....no vague statements....brings up specifics that he agree's with Pete on (EVO's, honduhs, lotus), and says...."sure, you can adjust with Subaru, but I personally think you can leave it alone."


THAT SAID....Pete, I'm still going to call you this afternoon and maybe we can find a nice middle ground here. I've never opened up a diff and played around the insides, sounds like fun, so lets see what we can figure out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2011 03:52PM by Jon Burke.

the french fuel was used in my lawn mower and also, more appropriately the 2 crf 100's drunk rippin the backyard mx track, I think Nat Stow got a can for his gsxr too.... but he didn't get the broken bones associated with the mx stuff...

This shit went bad in like 3 months, like the mower barely ran/idled bad. Jarome told me 6 months max even if sealed as they use "chemicals" that are "unstable". He also mentioned that they use "chemicals" as they are 99.9% pure, repeatable and reliable energy, most other companies use petrolium based additves which is at best 97% pure, so you have to factor that margin in while mapping, never get the same engergy twice so you can't max out the spark and be confident of the same fuel capacity in the next drum. When I showed him the RA fuel rules he laughed, "weight? weight is all???, oh we have no problems here to add weight, with chemicals"

Normally I don't use race fuel after 6 months no matter what, even if it's been sealed. Sunoco 104 is killer fuel, but it goes bad very quick. You can see it on the dyno, fresh new drum peak TQ you can eak out say 21.5' spark, old drum 17' spark before the hammering begins. So when you get a fresh drum from don small and sons, cal the engine to the max on the dyno then later get a rusty drum from some shady barn in PA and you put it in...blammo. If you're not REALLY stressing an engine there is fudge room but if you build and tune an engine to the max on good fresh fuel you had better keep using good fresh stuff.

Jon, yeah Kiyo is right the front diff on a evo is packaged into a tight spot, but the discs are the same size so the result is the same loads. I've seen them fail in the rear of an evo, front and rear of STI's even with there larger plates (6spd & R180). Even track cars have had issues, gravel rally is really hard on them. I'm not saying it's a bad product, real smooth progressive lock but I'd highly recomend you have a look, 3 hours vs DNF and you wont lose any LSD action by swapping plates around.

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Gravel Spray
Jon, yeah Kiyo is right the front diff on a evo is packaged into a tight spot, but the discs are the same size so the result is the same loads. I've seen them fail in the rear of an evo, front and rear of STI's even with there larger plates (6spd & R180). Even track cars have had issues, gravel rally is really hard on them. I'm not saying it's a bad product, real smooth progressive lock but I'd highly recomend you have a look, 3 hours vs DNF and you wont lose any LSD action by swapping plates around.

sounds like a plan...I gotta go run a few errands and when I get back home I'll grab a note pad and give you a call.

For what it's worth, i would probably stack the diff a little bit differently so that it's a little bit "softer".

I got a still un indentified front LSD for my Subaru 5 spd, and dropped it in as is. I found it a bunch too "tight", didn't like it much.

I had the gearbox out of the car again, and took apart the diff and restacked the plates so that it was a bit "looser", and i liked the behavior of the car alot more.


I found the car handled better, didn't push as much, etc.

My feeling is if the car was making a PILE more torque than i was, it would be better. I think you are making similar power to what i was back then.


I had a very tight rear diff, a 20kg Centre.

yeah, we did it all last night. Took all of 10 minutes to pull the ring off, un-screw the plate face, re-arranged the plates (pete told me the sequence), and put it all back together.

I was surprised at just how easy it was to do it. Thanks Rally Anarchy, you're the best-est!

Jon,

Don't fuck it up. Even Subaru gets it wrong. This is what happens when you (or Subaru) doesn't set the backlash properly on the front diff bearings:


The bearings that fell out of the main bearing assembly were D shaped instead of O shaped when looking along the length of them!

Tranny lasted 1.5 miles!

ouchy.

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Dazed_Driver
holy hell, that oil sounds awesome *facepalm*

Is it good for anything? Or was it a failed idea?

I love it. It doesn't seem to hurt synchros either.

Mind you, I'm using it in transmissions and diffs that use regular old brass synchros, metal diff plates (no "friction material", and no needle bearings anywhere, just tapered bearings and captivated ball bearings. But the stuff does help a trans designed for maybe 40hp wheezers to live behind 210hp/165ft-lb without failing as often.

This IS for short run sprint kinda events, too. Gearboxes still fail but it takes a lot longer and it's a much softer kind of failure, with all other gear oils tried the failure mode was metallic crap from the gears flowing through and destroying the bearings. No metallic crap from gears = longer bearing life, good enough for me.

I'll probably stop using it in the diff now, though. Don't really have any problems there that gear oil would solve, i just use it because I keep a bunch of it around so it's handy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2011 05:20PM by Pete.

got everything mounted up Tuesday night!

Wed night I got the car running (started up fine after 6+ months of just sitting there....thank god!) and ran through the gears with the car up on jack stands and no load.

drained the tranny oil and refilled.

Got it out on the street tonight, and SOOOOOO much fun! putted around doing slow figure 8's in the local community college until the po-po showed up and kicked me out, then I did a quick run down I85 and opened it up a little bit......weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!

Group N ratios kick ass!!

the gearset itself is a little notchy, I found you either hit the gear just perfect, or you miss it completely and it just sticks and you have to start over, its actually kind of hard to 'grind' the gears.

Its definitely noisy...upshifting w/o the clutch is literally 'BANG'....'BANG'.....(and its awesome!) downshifting is actually much smoother and quieter.



Thanks for everyone's help, especially Pete!