danster Haggis Muncher Professional Moderator Location: Haggisland UK Join Date: 01/04/2013 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 409 Rally Car: VWs (for my sins) |
Bump for a bit more info on the Kaaz diff for VW 02A and 02J gearboxes which is different and not interchangeable with the 020 gearbox.
Part number: DBV1820 The Kaaz diff uses a 114mm crownwheel ID which I understand is the size used in all 02A and early 02J boxes up till around 2003, whereupon they changed the crownwheel ID and rivet / crownwheel bolt sizes to try to overcome rivet failure. (you would have thought VW would have had that issue licked by then seeing as the earlier 020 was plagued with rivet and diff pin issues!) The Kaaz diff uses the "bolt in" type output flanges rather than the "push in" type. This is a more straightforward setup to build than the Kaaz diff for the 020 box which is a little fiddly to put together correctly due to asymmetry because of the packaging constraints of the smaller 020 box. The pics show the basic layout of how the parts fit together: I have included in the pics the 02A 100mm inner CV joint bolt in output flanges (later 02J boxes came with both 100 and 108mm inner CV sizes), their retaining bolts, and the two "threaded buttons", all of which need to be supplied from the donor box. The spacer that sits in-between these two buttons is supplied with the Kaaz diff, as are the crownwheel bolts, and 2 litres of fancy oil making it good value seeing as other manufactureser require an expensive crownwheel bolt kit to be bought that is not included with their diffs. There is a pic showing the ramp angles which is important to fit the two parts the correct way to ensure proper operation of the diff. There is a pic of one side's clutch plates showing the 2 driving, two driven and a Belleville thrust spring washer which sit on either side of the planet a sun gears. This makes 8 clutch plates overall. These can be swapped in position to change the locking effect characteristics of the diff. There are also two small thin shims that are not pictured as they happily stuck inside each of the diff casings with oil, these sit in the outer extremes of the internal cavity of the diff housings. It is important when reassembling the two halves to ensure all parts are sitting correctly and aligned. It is easy for the Belleville washer or a clutch plate to slip out of position and this will prevent the two halves tightening back together with the 4x M6 countersunk Allen headed countersunk screws that sit under the crownwheel. It is possible to damage components if something is out of place and the two halves are attempted to be forced back together. Also for info TranX have been bought over by Quaife and now there is a plate diff option for the 02A and 02J boxes marketed by them alongside Quaife's original gear type ATB diff. Their new plate diff comes with a wide range of ramp angle choices, but also comes as std with two setting options as there are two sets of ramps cut into the housing. Disappointingly not yet a Jackass Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2013 03:27PM by danster. |
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Rallymech Robert Gobright Infallible Moderator Location: White Center Seattle Join Date: 04/27/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,292 Rally Car: 91 VW GTI 8V |
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Rallymech Robert Gobright Infallible Moderator Location: White Center Seattle Join Date: 04/27/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,292 Rally Car: 91 VW GTI 8V |
A word about dealing with Kaaz USA. The guy who answers the phone will lie to you rather than give you bad news. You must assume that all orders will come from Japan and take eight weeks. Plan accordingly and keep the pressure on them.
Robert. "You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli. |
fliz Chad Eixenberger Elite Moderator Location: Grafton, WI Join Date: 02/01/2007 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 484 Rally Car: 1988 VW Golf #687 |
In a VW, a locked center diff exposes weaknesses in the case and CV joints. |
I know that VW already have CV issues, so how much more of a risk does a locked differential pose? How many people have broken CVs with open, LSD, and locked? To me it seems like a locked differential would guarantee the ability to drive out of a stage, allowing you to change a CV in service. Though the rate of service might increase (but by how much?), the rate of DNFing an event might go down . |
Rallymech Robert Gobright Infallible Moderator Location: White Center Seattle Join Date: 04/27/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,292 Rally Car: 91 VW GTI 8V |
The CV failures stem from too much torque at high steering angles. VWMS solved this in part by installing 8mm thick stops on the steering rack.
The key is to undetstand that mk2s don't like big power. Your money needs to be put into a final drive and gearset. Robert. "You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli. |
danster Haggis Muncher Professional Moderator Location: Haggisland UK Join Date: 01/04/2013 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 409 Rally Car: VWs (for my sins) |
I reckon the ability to drive out a stage with a broken shaft is over-rated. Possibly it stems from live axle RWD cars where limited damage can occur.
I was speaking to a mate that serviced for the works mk3 Golfs and when the drivers chose to continue with a busted shaft it caused immense damage to the car with the shaft flapping around. On occasion destroying the gearbox casing, taking out the brake lines and beating the bulkhead to bits. Manage to fix all that at service? Fine for a works team maybe but possibly not so for a lesser funded car. I also know folk that can change a busted driveshaft on stage quicker than some can change a flat tyre. Disappointingly not yet a Jackass |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Ultra Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Yeah I was at a BTRDA event just North of Scarbourough---started at Robin Hood's Bay Hotel---beautiful setting just down the road from Whitby---and I saw a lot of the Vauxhaul FWD guys in the Astras and Nova with a half shaft zip tied to the rollcage so I ax-ed a couple and they said the same like "I bust one by Gawd I'm getting this thing on quick time"...... The failures that really hurt are when the spline bit that pokes thru the actual hub shears right off....really frustrating when its .7 into the first stage.. Your mate still around who worked on the MkIIIs? Was he working with SBD down in Daventry??? Ask him if you could who would know what they were doing with the works cars regarding outer front CVs... John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
hoche Michel Hoche-Mong Mod Moderator Location: Campbell, CA Join Date: 02/28/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,156 Rally Car: Golf, Golf, RX-3 |
Now that's a trick I'd like to learn. The fiddly 12-pt bolts take me forever to undo, mostly because I'm paranoid about stripping them. Self-righteous douche canoe |
danster Haggis Muncher Professional Moderator Location: Haggisland UK Join Date: 01/04/2013 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 409 Rally Car: VWs (for my sins) |
Yeah. I keep in touch with him, I'll ask how often he needed to change them. I understand the kitcar uprights, CVs and shafts were all pretty bespoke with several incarnations. Outer CVs had bolts rather than nuts to tighten them to the drive flange. A bit like the later Audi road cars use now. Think this was to allow changing the shafts without splitting the ball joint, undo bolt, turn the steering and undo the inner CV which may have used only three bolts with 3 dowels. Shaft can be removed. These various upright pics are from Chris Eyre who runs the http://www.vwmotorsport.info/ site and show the development from GrpA modified standard uprights to the later SBG uprights made in the UK. Disappointingly not yet a Jackass |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Ultra Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Nice stuff. I have suggested that if'n we'ze wuz smrat, we'd gusset that long thing extended goose neck kind of making it somewhat like the middle fabricated sheetmetal upright..
And I suggest people lookat the nice fat 14mm studs in the bottom piccie, I like 14mm studs. 14 gooood. Been using 14mm since way back in the 80s when I converted from 9/16" bolts.. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
danster Haggis Muncher Professional Moderator Location: Haggisland UK Join Date: 01/04/2013 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 409 Rally Car: VWs (for my sins) |
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danster Haggis Muncher Professional Moderator Location: Haggisland UK Join Date: 01/04/2013 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 409 Rally Car: VWs (for my sins) |
I have moved this quote from the camber castor thread as it is more appropriate here I suppose.
The lad I know that helped out with the VWs at SBG has run the Gripper diffs in the various Peugeots he is involved with. I understand the early Grippers sometimes required the gear casings of the Peugeots to be modified by cutting and welding to give clearance for the diff. He reckoned the early Grippers where machined up by different shops and it took a while for the designs to be standardised to fit in the many different gear casings. I can understand this as it is only when you get seriously involved with a particular make and model of gearbox you begin to notice all the subtle little changes that were made over time. To expect an aftermarket lsd maker to have all the data to hand when they create a part is a bit optimistic. Even when I recently spoke to Quaife they were unaware of the different crownwheel IDs for the 02A and 02J gearboxes for their newly marketed TranX plate diff. The 02A and early 02J having 114mm, I have not stripped a later 02J box to be 100% on the other size yet. I explained to the technical chap that it was similar to the 020 gearbox situation with their two crownwheel IDs of 109 and 111mm, where the larger size restricts FD ratio choice to 3.6, whilst the 3.6, 3.9, 4.2, 4.6 had the 109mm. The gripper design is very similar to the TranX from what I have seen with the centre cross shafts scalloped out to lie over each other and form the cross. Whereas the Kaaz has a one piece part that looks like the centre cross of a Hardy Spicer propshaft joint. Here is something you may like to comment on. The Kaaz has two sets of ramps either side of the cross to exert the locking action on the plates, however the TranX has the cross fully supported on one half and only a single ramp cut on the other side. So when discussing or comparing ramp angles it is important to consider how they are calculated. This video clip shows what I am trying to explain and the components in question at 1.25, and also you can see the two choices of ramp angles you get with the TranX diff at 2.10. Disappointingly not yet a Jackass Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2013 12:54PM by danster. |
wildert Brian Klausen Ultra Moderator Location: Denmark Join Date: 03/21/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 388 Rally Car: VW Golf GTi 16V |
oooh... just saw this (slight delay ) - I may consider going this route with the regular inboard joints. Currently I have converted to VR6 joints on the outside - it has saved me a ton of trouble. Did take a bit of fabrication and machining to turn the 5x100 VR6 hubs into 4x100 - but is well worth it. But I do frankly HATE the mucking about with the 6 bolts on the inboard joints. 3 would make it a bit more less appalling . Any pointers as to how it would make sense to convert a stock setup? Should I stick with the regular 12.9 in hex bolts I have in now? And then what for dowels? Some "push in from the rear" jobbies? studs that screw in? What? I don't really have a clue Brgrds Brian |