25 year old brake lines - goodbye

The one thing that really put the scare into me at Oregon Trail (besides it being my first stage rally) was my brakes. The car is 25 years old and the brakes are stock. Coming down summit I had the pedal to the floor trying to brake into turns. Not good. Especially as we had relatively new ATE Blue fluid and had bled the brakes on Friday.

In PGT I can't actually change the brakes much. I can put in different pads (these stock ones are going away ASAP) and replace the lines but that's about it. So I am going to put in steel braided lines first thing and deal with the pads.

But with a 1987 Subaru RX you don't really have a good selection of aftermarket parts available. I should be able to match the pads closely enough that I can grind down the sides to fit but the lines... I am coming up blank. Any suggestions? I am guessing I will have to find something similar with the right fittings and make it work. Either that or build my own.

Suggestions are requested. Thanks in advance.

Fresher hoses help, too. maybe you can find some only 10 or 12 years old.
They do have to show production date on them.

I make my own flexy lines with reusable fittings...canny economy, mon.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

We have a place in Canada (or Western Canada anyways) called Greggs Distributors. Will make you (literally) any hose you can dream up (they are a general industrial supply company). Custom stainless (DOT approved) braided brake lines typically run around $100 for four.

You guys must have something similiar down in the states. Food for thought.

Also, as far as I know, MOST brake pad manufacturers will custom make you pads if you want to wait.

Hi John.

Yeah, that's the direction I think I will be going since I can't find any prebuilt ones. I have spare lines so I can use them to figure out the fittings. I may draw upon your depth of experience for guidance if you let me.

Speaking of, I am putting the car up on stands tomorrow and pulling the struts. The front left started leaking after friday night's PIR stages which is not good. I didn't hit anything that would make the newly revalved strut go sploink so I am concerned that Bilstein screwed up. Can we send it back to get checked/fixed?

Jeff,

I think we may have chatted before.

To be perfectly honest, having rallied an RX (an 85 in PGT/P4), I would seriously consider your path moving forward.

Reason being, there are a very few simple mods that IMHO are needed on these cars from a 100% reliability and sustainability standpoint.

#1. To solve your immediate concern. The XT6 hub swap will get you a few different things. Bigger front brakes, more common stuff, and the ability to use some Legacy/Impreza cast offs.

Pros:
- use legacy/impreza front brakes from current day show room models! Easy to find pads/rotors, probably at your closest "tuner" shop
- use legacy/impreza related front struts, which allows you to get CAMBER, and not continually wear the outside edges of your tires
- get away from the obscure 4x140mm bolt pattern, and move to 5x100 wheels. open the door to 14" and 15" gravel tires, which are actually sustainable (run used tires, etc).
- available from the wreckers for not that much $$$

Cons:
- you will have to modify your current front struts...but this is easy, JVAB can weld on "ears/flags" for you no problem.
- you will have to run open

#2. The most important reliability mod for these cars: RUN AN INTERCOOLER. These cars without an intercooler 100% require race fuel, even in stock form at stock type boost.

Pros:
- you will get more than 2 events out of an engine. If you don't blow head gaskets, you will blow pistons out of them.
- you'll get some power

Cons:
- some fabrication required
- you will have to run open


FWIW i ran these cars competitively for about 10 years in Ice Racing, and Rallying. These mods are what we found to keep these cars together, and make racing them "affordable". We used to get one weekend out of an engine with no intercooler...either head gaskets or pistons bye bye. Race gas extended that to 2 weekends. A $50 dollar WRX intercooler, got us to 2 seasons out of an engine on 94 octane pump gas!

I get all the reasons for running production (trophies or contingency $$$)...but i really feel like you will enjoy things so much more with just a few mods, and gain access to a world of used legacy/impreza cast offs which save you time and $$$ trying to source of create now obsolete parts.

Don't want to be harsh, but that is my 7 cents worth.

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Chris

Hi Chris.

Yes, we've spoken before. I think it was about Dmack tires.

The reason for PGT is not trophies or contingency money. It's cost. PGT is cheaper for me. The restrictions mean I can't spend more money on upgrading stuff. Once I feel a bit more comfortable then I'll think about upgrading to a new platform. So think then of this as a car with "training wheels". That's what I think. It was a cheap entry into the sport.

I did go back and read through our earlier email conversation about the engine life and the intercooler. I could pop in new hubs and brakes and intercooler and run in Open but I don't really see the point yet unless as you say these engines only have a life of two events. I won't be competitive in either class until I get some more seat time and I am hoping to get more than two events per engine. I guess time will tell. I do have access to two more engines for this car so if one goes kablooey at PFR (my next event) then I can swap in another engine without too much trouble as I don't have to go find one.

But I don't want to be in the situation I was in on Summit where the brake pedal goes to the floor and I'm flying down the road wondering if I will be able to slow down enough for the next corner. So enter this thread. If I can increase the brake performance with only a little outlay of cash then I'll be happy (for now).

And I am learning. Learning lots. About driving and maintenance and how things work and how to bleed brakes (yes, I had never actually done that until 3 hours before OTR - my earlier years were spent relatively mechanical-free but who says you can't teach a 44 year old new tricks?). Then when I blow this car up or just get a wild hair I'll switch to something more competitive with a better selection of replacement parts.

Or I'll take up sailboat racing again.

Oh, and Chris. Let's get an order of 13" DMACKs in the pipe for me so I can have them in time for PFR. We can take this tire thing offline. I'll send you email shortly.

Jeff, he's right about the motors. A LOT blew up with street hoonin' when they were around. LOTS ended up getting scrapped cause people got fed up.
Chris has done it, done top 10 Overall results and blown them up..

It's the ride that counts, not the class.
If there is a sooooooper easy way to mate up the Le-gassy stuff its under a coupla hundred at better Pull-a-parts everywhere for a whole lotta problems solved, and welding on ears to the fronts is easy.

My only question is what to do on the rear to get matching bolt pattern?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham

My only question is what to do on the rear to get matching bolt pattern?

You use the XT6 rear bits, which converts to 5x100, with a slightly larger rotor but same caliper I believe.

It's a bolt on affair, and rear suspenders stay the same. Even the rear trailing arms stay...just swap hubs.



And Jeff, it's not just you i've told to just give up on the actual "classing" problems. Just built the car the way you want it, get it to a point that is reliable and fun. Finishing rallies is alot more fun than DNF'ing or wrecking because you had no brakes or blown up a motor.

FWIW, i think i ran 4 events with the stock motor. 1st event, with a "fresh" motor build....heat gasket pop. Found a completely NEW motor from Subaru (fell off a truck ), ran it exclusively on 110 octane race fuel, and it lasted 2 full events, then went bang on the 3rd (cracked pistons and ran it out of oil).

I think that a couple hundred in junkyard parts is a good learning investment in the car forsure.

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Chris

They are shockingly cheese-u-lar cheesoid cast POS pistons. Very lightweight, no cast in steel struts to help the skirt, LIGHT crowns...

As they say in the Vatican "dominous rex!!!" (quickly doin' sigs-o-the-cross when I first saw some)..

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Lest it come over another way, I do really appreciate the advice and suggestions and all that.

A good part of my trepidation is down to the fact that I can't build the car. I am not mechanically inclined. I can and have wired many things in the car but when we get down to things like bearings and bushings and blow-off valves I am way beyond my experience level.

And it would sure be nice if I had a covered place to work on the car. Or even a fully paved driveway. Yes, yes, excuses. But excuses is all I has.

All that being said, I have directed my service captain and service chief (two completely volunteer guys who helped me immensely at OTR) to this thread so they are up to date when we start the suspension dis-assembly tomorrow.

So we'll hold off on 13" tires for the moment while I cogitate on all this. 5x100 would imply 14" wheels which means I need to go BUY the 14" wheels as well as the rear hubs and the front assembly and get the boingers some welded ears and get the IC and figure out the piping and then get that sorted and then put everything back together at least twice because I forgot the 6.5 Blorwitz and then get 14" tires. Oh, and also the crossover pipe needs fixing because its broke and boost is leaking out and I need to cut away some rusted metal and get some new metal welded on (so the holes in the back disappear) and get some PaintOverRust for the rear gate because I can't find another one anywhere and then paint over that and then... then... fun?

On the brake lines, find -3AN adapters for your existing calipers and brake lines and go with standard length -3AN hoses. They are readily available and very affordable. Only use the steel adapters though for brakes. The adapters are a bit expensive but once you are there, you are good to go.

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"I, for one, welcome our Robot Overlords." - Philip J. Fry

Quote
pdxphil42
On the brake lines, find -3AN adapters for your existing calipers and brake lines and go with standard length -3AN hoses. They are readily available and very affordable. Only use the steel adapters though for brakes. The adapters are a bit expensive but once you are there, you are good to go.

Further on the excellent idea:
terminate the car's hard lines in an ordinary -3 tube nut, and a bulkhead fitting, worth it when something dies. Then all youse gots metric is at the master cylinder and the caliper itself...master end never dies, so leave it alone.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

AN flaring tools and tube nuts are very cheap. AN fittings are easy to change versus their OEM counterparts which in my experience seem to be welded shut in about 5 minutes after you screw them together.

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"I, for one, welcome our Robot Overlords." - Philip J. Fry