Jay Jay Woodward Senior Moderator Location: Snohomish, WA Join Date: 12/21/2005 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 893 Rally Car: '90 Mazdog Frankenprotege |
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imnotcrazy Don Kennedy Mega Moderator Location: Reading, PA Join Date: 10/05/2006 Age: Fossilized Posts: 227 Rally Car: Impreza |
I think he meant can't read, not can read. It certainly appears that they can't read. It's a common problem with printed word on internet forums. HE DOESN'T INTEND TO EVER RACE OR RALLY THIS CAR. It's a project for him and he was looking for advice from some of the more intelligent people on this forum. Don Kennedy |
wvonkessler Wilson von Kessler Mega Moderator Location: Lookout Mountain, GA Join Date: 02/28/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,127 Rally Car: Colts are in Finland; now '87 325i, '89 325i |
Don, that is a wild ass assumption if I've ever seen one. "Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne "Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain |
SeanP Sean Lane Elite Moderator Location: Sacramento, CA Join Date: 07/29/2011 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 334 Rally Car: 2000 Dodge Neon G2, bruised |
That looks like a pretty fun project. |
BJosephD Brian j Dyer Professional Moderator Location: southern maine Join Date: 05/01/2009 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 381 Rally Car: 04 Rocky Mountain MTB... |
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Houdini91 Tyler Estes Super Moderator Location: Blackwater, Missouri Join Date: 05/24/2012 Age: Settling Down Posts: 164 Rally Car: My PC. |
Why not 5 types of engines? The electric ones, internal combustion (with a turbo AND supercharger, like a Group B Delta S4) a diesel, and a mahfuckin' jet engine? Hows about a boat motor too. Because AMPHIBIOUS "RALLY" CAR. Add rotors from a helicopter, some wings, and that would be the most ubertyte-bitchin' hoon-mobile ever. Add some wheels on the roof, and you'll be done after you find some sweet wings. Yo. Something about something....dirt. |
TheRookie Shelby Cruz Ultra Moderator Location: Puyallup,Wa Join Date: 07/16/2012 Age: Settling Down Posts: 11 Rally Car: 2001 Ford Focus ZX3 |
THANK YOU!! I was looking for advice from these people, but apparently they have racing so far up that they can't even give proper advice to this rookie. If I can maybe find the right person who can help me that would be perfect! Yes i CAN weld, Yes I'm doing all this by myself, No I don't have enough money to pay someone to do the project for me besides why would I do that? It won't even be a project if I did that!, Everything I am doing is for experience, not to race against some race jocky who thinks his car is awesome and doesn't care what other people ask for. Why can't people these days help a NOOB out, or should I say TROLL as some of you hippies call it. Well?! Anyone willing to help the right way or not?!
The Rookie with the "BIIIIIIGGGGGGGG"!!!!!!! plan |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Godlike Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Dude, all the guys here have all bitten off way more than they should have for some project and it wasn't, aside from this one punk we all call "The Forum Chihuahua", their first projects.. You want help? Then answer in detail the questions I asked. You want help then you have to give something too. So: budget. Age. Details of previous project--of any sort. You think these guys flipping you shit is no fun? Wait till you start talking to machinists and others you will need help from. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Jay Jay Woodward Senior Moderator Location: Snohomish, WA Join Date: 12/21/2005 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 893 Rally Car: '90 Mazdog Frankenprotege |
I'll assume just for a moment you aren't a troll. But you come to a site devoted to rally, racing, and get all mad that everyone here is into rallying and racing. And you come here looking for help on a project that you disclose is NOT for rallying or racing till mid-thread. Do you see how you might just possibly come across as a troll?
As for help for a project like this, why do you think anyone else, anywhere, can "help" you with it? You wanna try and do something unique, so by definition something no one else has tried. So how the hell is anyone else gonna be able to spoon feed you info on, oh, I dunno, subframe dimensions, parts interchanges, or anything else? Do you really think we're all holding out info as to how to bolt "an Eclipse AWD system in that and use the 4g63 motor and make custom mounts and do some fab work to get everything to fit" ? Sure. We have CAD files for every new mount, complete blueprints for the floorpan swap, and a comprehensive parts list. Oh, wait. We don't. So you'll have to figure out every last detail and see if it all works. One last attempt: It would be EASIER to build a new car from scratch from the ground up. ya, rly. Jay Woodward Snohomish, WA '90 Mazdog Frankenprotege Chronologically, 46... |
mekilljoydammit Godlike Moderator Join Date: 09/22/2010 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 336 Rally Car: No rally car yet |
Longish post ahead; I'd like to think it's worth reading though, and I'm probably going to give you as many answers as you're going to get.
Okay, if you came to this forum expecting everyone to get onboard and congratulate you on what a beautiful and unique butterfly you're being for having this idea, and then hand you a step by step instruction list on how to do any variant of this, you came to the wrong forum. The first of those, you could get from most other forums populated by people who don't do anything more ambitious than boltons, the second you're not going to get from anyone who isn't trying to sell you something. You've laid out a desire to do what would be a pretty ambitious (and yes, cool) project even for someone who has been doing this shit for quite a while, one that would easily take years of dedicated effort, and all we have gotten regarding your skill level is reference to it being your first project, and a series of what sound to the more experienced like the "wrong" questions. This has been guiding their responses, because I think most of us here know full well what it's like to be in over your head on a project that started out being really ambitious and cool but maybe not fully thought out. There's also a temptation to take the easy route and assume it's hopeless for you, as that involves a lot less typing. All that said, noone here or anywhere else is going to be able to tell you what all you need to do. There's many ways to do this, and many choices you can make along the way. I'm going to detail a few variations on how I see it being possible to get this done. This is making no assumptions about your skill level; these would be choices that a fully equipped shop would have to choose from. First question you have to answer for yourself is what the driveline is going to come from. As I see it you have the choice between some sort of Mitsubishi AWD car or the Sierra Cosworth. The Mitsu option has the advantage of being available in this country really easily, the Ford option has the advantage of having the right name on the valvecover and being a bit cooler because it's not available over here. There's more options if you're willing to butcher a transaxle and mess with adapter plates and fabricated or billet parts, but that's a hassle; we can address that if you really want but enh. Next, there's a few more drivelines that are options if automatic transmissions are an option, but then why bother? There's also a few more AWD donors that won't work in any sane, intelligent way; Audis and Subarus for example. Next question is if you have the knowledge to redesign the suspension geometry from scratch. If you do, do so; it gives you a lot more freedom in how everything else bolts up because you're not tied to whatever compromises the OEM your donor came from made to make shit bolt up easily on a production line. If you don't, use all the suspension crap from the donor car in the same orientation and location that it was in the donor car. This can mean making a lot of measurements, or using big chunks of the donor car's sheetmetal. We'll get to that. Now, all the rest. I'm going to order these in order I see preferable (this is my preferences, yours may differ) There's potential for blending between the options, I'm just drawing arbitrary lines between them to make them distinct. I'm also going to assume you want something that at least has the potential to go fast and actually work right; if not there's all sorts of really hackjob ways that will be safe enough to push on and off a trailer at car shows and look sorta right. First option is, you can make a tube chassis to mount the suspension and driveline from the donor vehicle (using the stock subframes and matching the geometry, or using new geometry, whichever) and pull molds from the Focus to make a fiberglass body. Add sheetmetal wherever necessary to mount the interior from the Focus, and so on. Done right, this will be the lightest, fastest, stiffest option. It's also going to be closest to a pure race car, and will look less stock than the other options. It will probably also have tubes resembling a roll cage around the roof area (because they have to support the roof panels) so may not be comfortable on the street. Second option is to do the same option for the tube chassis and then cram the Focus sheetmetal around it. Think, fundamentally, cutting the car in half down the centerline, cutting away all the parts of the car that don't fit around the tube chassis, then welding it back together around, and also to, the tube chassis. The Focus sheetmetal will no longer have to take suspension loads, so quite a bit of it can be cut away. If you plan it right you can also use the upper structure from the Focus (pillars and roof and whatnot) and avoid the need to have cage-like tubes up there. This option has the potential to be as stiff as the previous option, while being easier to get the stock interior, glass, etc into. Third, the simplest option is to make new front and rear subframes to take the Mitsu driveline and suspension stuff. Copy the Mitsu suspension mount points and geometry onto something made out of tubes that bolts to the Focus body. You will probably have to hack up the rear of the Focus to add shock towers to fit the Mitsu shocks, but that's not a big deal comparatively. You may have to hack up some of the floorpan to fit the driveshaft. The thing is that while this is the simplest option, it probably won't be the easiest because you have to try to make everything fit to the Focus chassis. If the donor car suspension goes someplace the Focus has something structural, you have to plan out where to cut, weld, and add metal until it's properly structural again. It's a headache, whereas with the previous options you can pretty much just make anything sheetmetal get out of the way without handling/safety consequences. Fourth option is to graft the entire floorpan from the donor car, including shock towers and whatnot, into the Focus. This is fundamentally how the Escort Cosworths were made. Think of this like option 2, except the floorpan, shock towers, lower rails, etc are the tube chassis if you take my meaning. It has the potential to be the most OEM-like option, but the catch is that when Ford made the Escort Cosworth, they had blueprints of both cars detailing where all the structural parts of the sheetmetal are, and you won't. So there'll be a lot of screwing around with sheetmetal to get everything to line up and have enough structural support to not be floppy, and in the end it will probably need enough tube reinforcement that it will morph into the previous option by the time it's stiff 'enough'. And that's about it. There's no swap kit, nothing off the shelf that will do the hard parts of the job, no easy solutions. You said in the initial post you don't want to spend money to do something that won't work; well, anything is possible to make work with enough time and effort, and we all know that, so nobody wants to say it's not possible because it's provably wrong. It's just, the amount of work to do it anywhere near right is enormous. |
mekilljoydammit Godlike Moderator Join Date: 09/22/2010 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 336 Rally Car: No rally car yet |
For a time budget on any of this, here's food for though. For mid-2000s WRC builds, where they took apart the chassis and made major sheetmetal mods and all the rest and made a FWD car into an AWD one, they reputedly put around 500-1000 man hours into the body shell alone. This is with highly skilled and motivated workers who aren't trying to figure out details as they go along, just following a plan. It's also not "sitting around drinking, scratching your head, fantasizing about how cool this will be when it's done" hours; non-professional workers could easily double that.
How many hours a week can you spend doing this? |
alkun Albert Kun Mega Moderator Location: SF Ca. Join Date: 01/07/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,732 Rally Car: volvo 242 |
Dude, your project is so awesome! its going to be killer, i'd say 400- 500 hp easy with an eclipse motor with a bigger turbo, or maybe a second turbo for wicked fast spool up, and getting the mitsubishi drivetrain mounted in a Focus is no problem, I know a guy who says it almost bolts right in. I'd totally go with some carbon fiber floor panels, but the big choice is if you should go with just a sequential shifter, or paddle-shift system. I know some bros in your area who will help you put it together. Sorry, thats an example of trolling. A troll is someone on the internet that tell lies and tries to get other people to believe they are being serious and go along with it. The people above think you might be a troll because the things you are saying are so unrealistic. What kind of help are you looking for? Help planning your project? We have tried to help you plan a project that you might actually be able to do, and you don't respond. If you are looking for help, like someone is going to come over and show you how to build this thing, thats not going to happen, because anyone who knows even a little bit about working on cars knows what you are describing will take many years, cost tens of thousands of dollars, and won't work anywhere as well as a beat down third hand WRX, if it works at all. Your slightly insulting talk of how we are a bunch of hippy race jockies who wont help you, thats just funny. On the off chance that you do build this, or you even get the car running well in stock form, be careful, cars are dangerous. Last week a friend watched some guy test drive his kit-car Corvette, spin some donuts, get a little wide, bounce off a parked car, then hit a concrete building, and DIE from his broken ribs punching through his lungs. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 04:44PM by alkun. |
Jay Jay Woodward Senior Moderator Location: Snohomish, WA Join Date: 12/21/2005 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 893 Rally Car: '90 Mazdog Frankenprotege |
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alkun Albert Kun Mega Moderator Location: SF Ca. Join Date: 01/07/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,732 Rally Car: volvo 242 |
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john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Godlike Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
I sneer at broken ribs poking holes in my lungs (pffffft!). I've had worse. Only thing is it tastes kinda icky spitting up blood but it sure was a lot lerss blood in my mouth than the times I crashed and bit my tongue HARD, fawk me man that was a lotta blood. Oh and he doesn't like "hippies"? What does a presumably young guy in Puyallup know about hippies? Does he mean hipsters" Well Grant has a car or 2 built, and he's close.. You a hippie Al? I thought you were some Renaissanceman scientist/stickamn? Where would one even find a hippie now? Been 40 years since I've seen any. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |