2003 Neon Project

I have posted this procces on a couple other forums so I figured why not here as well. There is a little back story here. About 4 months ago I started prepping a 2000 neon. After the teardown proccess I found the car to be in worse shape that I first thought. I was very luck to have a local shop who happend to be a good friend of mine donate a 2003 Neon SE to the cause. So after the first car was completley stripped we started the proccess all over again.




The car was given to the shop because the transmission went on the car and the owner did not want to replace it. Only catch is the car not only needed a new transmission but it was an automatic.. So of course this meant a ATX to MTX swap. Something that I have never done before.


This was right after I removed the old pedal assembly and replaced it with the manual pedals. I must say this may have been the hardest part of the swap due to the small space and fitting the pedals around the steering column. There was also an issue with the clutch cable going through the firewall. I am using the transmission from a 1st gen neon what was cable clutch instead of hydro. chrysler was so not to leave the exsisting clutch hole in the firewall and just reuse it for the hood release. but they decided to reduce the size by 1/8th of an inch. Just a hair to small for the pedal assembly to fit through. With a little grinding it all fit into place.



Here is a picture after we replaced the shifter and cables. This was by far the easiest part of the conversion. Everything was a direct bolt replacement. Even the plug through the floor of the car for the cabels to go through.




After we did the swap we removed all the interior and started the proccess of removing the sound dampening material. For the first neon we tried dry ice let me say that was a mess and it didn't work the way i have seen and hear of it working for others. This trick we used a heat guy to heat up the tar and just used a putts knife to pull up the edges. Once we had the tar hot enough it would reach a point where you could just grab the piece of material and peel it right off the floor.

It took me all of a day for the first time removing the dampening material with dry ice. This time it took me all of 3 hours while i was working with the heat gun and a lot less cleanup afterwards as well.

Right now we are in the stages of designing and mocking up the roll cage and getting the materials to build it. I am taking advice i recieved from grassroots motorsports and using steel conduit to mock up the frame so where it get to bending the expensive dom steel I have a ready made template to work from.

I have a hard time understanding how a conduit cage template is worth the time effort and cost. Small diameter tubing isn't going to show you any problems. Full 1.75 and 1.5 diameter conduit is a pain to bend. A template cage will cost you more than one or two wasted lengths of DOM.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

What Robert said. I've been building rollcages for 22 years. I use a cardboard template for the main hoop and DOM tubing for the side lateral patterns. That's it. I have patterns for every car I've done. The amount of tubing you need to make patterns shouldn't cost any more than $30. Make the side lateral patterns out of individual bends connected together with a piece of smaller tubing inside at the joints so you can rotate the bends to fit the A-pillar the best way. Then tack all the joints together. There's your pattern for that side. Grind the tack weld loose and reverse it to fit the other side A-pillar and then you have a symmetrical cage that actually fits.
There, you're welcome. I just gave away more of my trade secrets. I would assume everyone does it this way but then I've seen how some people's cages fit.

Perhaps this is my ignorance of the fact showing, but aren't you going to seam weld the body?

---

It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion.
William Ralph Inge

TANSTAAFL

Quote
Doivi Clarkinen
There, you're welcome. I just gave away more of my trade secrets. I would assume everyone does it this way but then I've seen how some people's cages fit.

I do lots of measuring and some trig then enter design it in Bend Tech Pro which is usally pretty close. I sometimes fuck it up on one but then use that and some more measuring to get it back to good. I then store it something like this...
Half lateral:
Cut length 78.21
Bend 1: 26.56 at 31 degrees
Bend 2: 54.18 at 55 degrees and 28 degrees rotation
Note: Remove approximately 1" from main hoop side.
Profiling is where it feels like the biggest art to me.
Paying someone else to build a cage is always a good idea. Plenty of poor fitting cages have had to be cut out or are left in and never see a stage because the cage is shit.
Seam welding a Dodge Neon is like having a big below ground swimming pool and a double wide trailer. Get a cage into it and get to wrecking the fucking thing already.

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Grant Hughes

well guys this is exactly why I posted this to get some feedback. This is just a first shot at it.. so any input is good. I have realized that the conduit is a bad idea after the first could attempts. I really like the idea with creating the bends separate and using smaller tubing to link them to the strait pieces. I would have never though of that myself. I welcome any and all information you guys are willing to give.... Also I do not plan on seam welding due to the fact it is a neon and I have an extra shell if it comes down to it and I get the car to a point where it actually needs it.

Thanks Everyone
Alan

"I really like the idea with creating the bends separate and using smaller tubing to link them to the strait pieces. I would have never though of that myself."

For the pattern only, right.

"Get a cage into it and get to wrecking the fucking thing already." This is one of the most brilliant statments ever posted on this site.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Quote
Rallymech
"I really like the idea with creating the bends separate and using smaller tubing to link them to the strait pieces. I would have never though of that myself."

For the pattern only, right.

"Get a cage into it and get to wrecking the fucking thing already." This is one of the most brilliant statments ever posted on this site.

Why yes I do mean for the pattern I at least have that much knowledge going into this... Me and my codriver looked at all options when it came to building the cage ourselves or to pay someone to do it for us. In the end we chose the build your own route.. I know it may be a silly thing to do especially with such a vital piece of equipment...

Alan

Quote
badcamber
Also I do not plan on seam welding due to the fact it is a neon and I have an extra shell if it comes down to it and I get the car to a point where it actually needs it.

Thanks Everyone
Alan

Except that if you don't seam weld a Neon it will disintegrate before you even get a chance to wreck it. At least seam weld and reinforce around the strut towers and engine bay. I built a rally cage in a Neon that had previously been road raced with a bolt in cage and I had to repair some serious cracks in the firewall. I also popped a front strut tower clean out of one of my Omnis (not seam welded.)

Quote
Doivi Clarkinen

Quote
badcamber
Also I do not plan on seam welding due to the fact it is a neon and I have an extra shell if it comes down to it and I get the car to a point where it actually needs it.

Thanks Everyone
Alan

Except that if you don't seam weld a Neon it will disintegrate before you even get a chance to wreck it. At least seam weld and reinforce around the strut towers and engine bay. I built a rally cage in a Neon that had previously been road raced with a bolt in cage and I had to repair some serious cracks in the firewall. I also popped a front strut tower clean out of one of my Omnis (not seam welded.)

Plus Juan on the minimum of around anything a) stressed and b) easy to get to like every gawddam thing in the floor.

For any Newb-u-lar sorts a seriously non rhetorical question:

Why do you think Ford, makers of the coolest car in the history of human kind in this parsec of the Galaxie, the Ford Escort, and maker of one we did get here the Sierra, ....
begin both rally prep books Chapter 1, Section 1: Bodyshell Preparation
Section 1.1.A :
"It is important to strengthen the bodyshell for 2 reasons....."

Why if everybody thinks that their econ--shit-box doesn't need it?

Hint;

Modern cars---anything designed after maybe 1970 ----are flimsy.

Do it in advance SOME where it is a) or b) above---or :
DNFs as junk falls off.
Repair ripped shit half assed and unsatisfyingly
do it later anyway but take longer in the end.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Seam welding is something that you can do. Building a cage is what you should contract out.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Two things...

Stitch/seam weld as much as you can. Get dry ice and use it to help break up the plastic/rubber crap for sound deading. Angle grinder+wire wheel all the rubber BS in all of the seems then weld.

Reinforce all the strut towers as much as you can. I overbuilt the crap out of mine, it's like a tank. But this is the stuff that is 100x easier to do now instead of thinking you're going to go back and do it later.



Also, for bending the cage. I used JD2's free bend software, not the greatest but if you figure out how it works it's fantastic. If you're decent at math, well really just geometry and measuring from a fixed point, you can get the angles really tight on the first try.

http://www.jd2.com/t-bendsoftware.aspx



If you need any help just kicking around ideas, you could stop up my way sometime.

Quote
czwalga
Two things...

Stitch/seam weld as much as you can. Get dry ice and use it to help break up the plastic/rubber crap for sound deading. Angle grinder+wire wheel all the rubber BS in all of the seems then weld.

Reinforce all the strut towers as much as you can. I overbuilt the crap out of mine, it's like a tank. But this is the stuff that is 100x easier to do now instead of thinking you're going to go back and do it later.



Also, for bending the cage. I used JD2's free bend software, not the greatest but if you figure out how it works it's fantastic. If you're decent at math, well really just geometry and measuring from a fixed point, you can get the angles really tight on the first try.

http://www.jd2.com/t-bendsoftware.aspx



If you need any help just kicking around ideas, you could stop up my way sometime.

I might have to hit you up on that. I have been working with that software actually getting the cage all designed out. I think i finally have the program figured out enough that I can actually modeling the cage. I got so used to using 3dmax for computer modeling it has taken me a bit to get used to different software haha.

I would say we could meet for a Pens game but I don't see that happening this year...

Quote
badcamber

Quote
czwalga
Two things...

Stitch/seam weld as much as you can. Get dry ice and use it to help break up the plastic/rubber crap for sound deading. Angle grinder+wire wheel all the rubber BS in all of the seems then weld.

Reinforce all the strut towers as much as you can. I overbuilt the crap out of mine, it's like a tank. But this is the stuff that is 100x easier to do now instead of thinking you're going to go back and do it later.



Also, for bending the cage. I used JD2's free bend software, not the greatest but if you figure out how it works it's fantastic. If you're decent at math, well really just geometry and measuring from a fixed point, you can get the angles really tight on the first try.

http://www.jd2.com/t-bendsoftware.aspx



If you need any help just kicking around ideas, you could stop up my way sometime.

I might have to hit you up on that. I have been working with that software actually getting the cage all designed out. I think i finally have the program figured out enough that I can actually modeling the cage. I got so used to using 3dmax for computer modeling it has taken me a bit to get used to different software haha.

I would say we could meet for a Pens game but I don't see that happening this year...

Yeah, measuring and finding the angles for the main hoop with the software is really easy, unless you're doing one of the fancy cages. The main hoop is all in one plane. So you just have X Y measurements, Z would all be 0.


The only difficult ones are the half laterals, because they usually move with the lines of the car and have bends on different planes. So when you do it's measurements, you'll have X Y Z measurements, where as in the main hoop the Z (or whatever you letter you chose for that axis) is always 0.


Also for the notches, I just measured and did trig.

Quote
czwalga
Two things...

Stitch/seam weld as much as you can. Get dry ice and use it to help break up the plastic/rubber crap for sound deading. Angle grinder+wire wheel all the rubber BS in all of the seems then weld.

Reinforce all the strut towers as much as you can. I overbuilt the crap out of mine, it's like a tank. But this is the stuff that is 100x easier to do now instead of thinking you're going to go back and do it later.



Also, for bending the cage. I used JD2's free bend software, not the greatest but if you figure out how it works it's fantastic. If you're decent at math, well really just geometry and measuring from a fixed point, you can get the angles really tight on the first try.

http://www.jd2.com/t-bendsoftware.aspx



If you need any help just kicking around ideas, you could stop up my way sometime.

One thing:
Enough with the dry ice..

Liquid. It contacts. It works.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.