Mustang or ....

Quote
aj_johnson

Quote
starion887
^^^ If you mean a numerically low 1st gear, that answer is easy. It makes the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts closer and it makes the car perform flat out a lot better as the wheel torque drops in each higher gear. If you ever rallied with modest HP and a crappy 2-3 (wide) shift ratio, the answer becomes obvious after just a few stages: the wheel torque drops a LOT when going to 3rd, just when the wind resistance in the 40-60 mph range is building up seriously. A steep 1st gear (numerically high) tends to be almost useless on the tightest turns, moreso with a steep rear gear; and you only launch from a dead stop into a stage once where a steep gear does you any good.... Mark B.

I understand the appeal of good 2-3-4 but cannot fathom shifting to 1st once you are moving. Its the MPH ratings thrown in that are confusing me. if 1 is good to 40 and 2 is good to 55 it would seem that you would have to use 1st or bog 2nd. I've just never personally owned or known a trans that liked to shift into 1st.

To answer this and Gene's point about the relationship of 1st gear to the 2-3 shift...if you get a 1st gear ratio of around 2.2 or 2.4 like in a close ratio box, then the 2 and AND the 3rd gear ratios usually have to move closer and thus give a better 2-3 shift. 1st and 3rd gears are indeed not directly related but they do all ususally move together somewhat.
The use of 1st in rallies depends entirely upon the roads you rally upon. In rallies like STPR and some of the RWV stages and the old Cherokee and Chattahoochee rallies for examples (all of which are in the Appalachian mtns), you will regularly use 1st gear for a few reeealy tight hairpins and especially for switchback intersections, and so a good 1st gear ratio is highly valuable. And you could use 1st gear even in some tight, rough corners in upper MI; dunno if those still exist.

So I took a peek at the ID tags on my T5. It's 13-52-065-904. Looked up an ID chart and it should be this one. Good enough or get something else?


1352-065 Ford 1984 Mustang/Capri 5.0 V8 U 2.76 2.95 1.94 1.34 1.00 0.63

Quote
RnJ
So I took a peek at the ID tags on my T5. It's 13-52-065-904. Looked up an ID chart and it should be this one. Good enough or get something else?


1352-065 Ford 1984 Mustang/Capri 5.0 V8 U 2.76 2.95 1.94 1.34 1.00 0.63

That's the one.. Oh you still need to go correct your name and location, OK?

With that box you can use even up to 4.6 if you have wheezy n.a. motor, and if it'll wheeze to 7000 still get a decent run in 1st.. instead of the '2 car length 1st"

We can't do much more advice cause we don't know who you are, what ebvents you've done what in and where you are, the name and location lets us say "Oooooooh you've done xx events so even if you're someplace that has some masochistic fixation on Wawwy Amerwica, you've already done xx events so pass their stupid "no turbo---but ANY LEVEL n.a.---for beginner rule"

So if you could do turbo, the ol Lima 2300 SOHC ain't fancy but their are stooooopid reliable even at say 200-210 hp level---which is all you need if you open the throttle... so if you could do turbo, that box and a 4.3 and you're done with engine/clutch/box/axle..

Leaving just cage and suspension and brakes.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham

I doubt there would be any advantage to a auto tragic...and I think a C4 is just a tarted up C3 and I am familiar some with how crappy those are. (The come in autotragic Xratties, wifey car has one..ugh)

/quote]

Not that we deal with automatics much here-but just for general information-

A Ford C4 trans has no relation to the C3.

The C4 came out about 1964 and powered fairlanes,falcons,mustangs ETC.
Although It's small, it's a GOOD transmission.

Stock it's good for 300hp+

Built up and with high zoot planetaries ,etc. it will take survive 700-1000hp.

It's very simple and it's what most people who rebuild autotragics used to learn on for their first trans rebuild-cuz a monkey could do it.

I was one of those monkeys.

Although in the past I've rebuilt c4's,c6's,
Cruise-o-matics,904's,727's,125's,425's,350's,400's,200-r4's and 700-r4's-I don't remember ever working on a C3.

I just remember my trans teacher saying it was a steaming turd.
Looks like it came out about 10 years after the C4-initially for the Pinto.

Seems like a waste of effort when they had a perfectly good slushbox with the C4,Ford must have figured they could make 30 cents more per car or something.

Luckily, my 2 XR's had T-9's-not my favorite trans either-but I'll take 'em over a C3 anyday!

---

................................................. .....................

Support your Local North American Rally Forum!!

While they are still around-and get the hell off Farsebook!!

We still have Specialstage & RallyAnarchy.

Post up Here:

https://rallyanarchy.com/phorum/posting.php

and here:

https://www.specialstage.com/forums/forum.php

Glad to see the comments above on the C4; explains why I could put 300 hp/350 ftlb torque in front of one and beat on that trannie for years, plus tow a rally car, with no complaints from that trannie.

I learned a lot about auto trannies and rally/race driving just recently, and in an unexepcted way. I got the chance to drive my SIL's 2009 Challenger with the auto-slap stick and compare it with the 6 speed manual in mine. Having driven RWD rally cars for a long time, I am used to using the engine torque both ways; with the right technique you can kick out the rear and steer the car with both throttle on and dropping the throttle off; the reverse torque from the engine drag is part of maneuvering the car; it works well, escpecialy to kick the rear out under hard deceleration into corners.

With the 6 speed Challenger manual, you can do the same thing in setting the car in and out of corners like on a RWD manual trannie rally car; it's just not as dramatic as in a rally and on gravel, but the same weight transfers and such can be done. With the SIL's auto trans Challenger, and using it in normal mode, you can't get the same weight transfers with the auto, because the non-locked torque converter in the lower gears does not allow you to work with the engine's reverse torque when the throttle is released. However, if you put it in manual shift mode, then the trannie controller keeps the torque converter locked or essentially so all the time. With that simple change the auto trannie'd car suddenly started acting like a manual trannie car, and the reverse torque of the engine can be used. It was an eye-opener for me, and hlepd me understand the deficiencies of an auto trans in racing; that may change long term with new models and electronic controls.

SO with a C4, you won't have any option for the essentially locked torque converter (at least that I know of), and you will lose that extra car maneuverability and handling tehcniqute that you can achieve with a manual trannie.

BTW, funny thing....my SIL is a spinster, 3rd grade school teacher....she made quite a stir in her small town when she drove into the school lot in a shiny new black Challenger R/T instead of the 12 year old Honda Civic....!!

Mark B.

I'd suspect that a smaller torque converter might help also. Less weight and a higher stall speed. Another variable to mess with.

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
RnJ
So if you could do turbo, the ol Lima 2300 SOHC ain't fancy but their are stooooopid reliable even at say 200-210 hp level---which is all you need if you open the throttle... so if you could do turbo, that box and a 4.3 and you're done with engine/clutch/box/axle..

Leaving just cage and suspension and brakes.

It's got a carbed stroked 302 roller engine with aluminum heads that I'd use, I'm not going to go the turbo route.

Next issue is the car has a manual steering rack. Probably need to slap it together and drive it to see if this needs to get changed out. Guessing I'll have to get something else in there. Might try using a Sweet rack.

Cage- know some good builders and some not so good, but might finally get a bender and do my own.

Brakes- probably hit the boneyard and find something. Saw Hurst used Lincoln stuff. Should be easy enough.

The C4 that I have is a full drag deal. 3 speed, full manual reverse valve body, trans brake, big cooler, small edge convertor, reverse lockout Hurst shifter.

It doesn't shift unless you want it to.

I'll have to look around and see if any of the off roaders use them and how they hold up.

I've lost 2 clutches and seen tons of people with manual gearbox issues, so this is something I might test out.

Quote
RnJ
The C4 that I have is a full drag deal. 3 speed, full manual reverse valve body, trans brake, big cooler, small edge convertor, reverse lockout Hurst shifter.

It doesn't shift unless you want it to.

I'll have to look around and see if any of the off roaders use them and how they hold up.

I've lost 2 clutches and seen tons of people with manual gearbox issues, so this is something I might test out.

Sounds good to me, might well hold up to the V8 better and you can just keep one foot on the brake and one on the gas.

Sounds like your major tasks are adding some good rear discs. What kind of gearing do you have in the back? A simple goal for rally is to go as low as you can, with a redline in top gear of somewhere around 120mph. V8 torgue is in a different spot, so that will change things, but its somewhere to start. Steering might also be improved by a quick rack or quickener gearbox.

Same Ryan that codrove for Bob?

Quote
Greg Donovan
Same Ryan that codrove for Bob?

Still me. How have you been Greg?

Quote
RnJ

Quote
Greg Donovan
Same Ryan that codrove for Bob?

Still me. How have you been Greg?

Doing well, getting back involved with rally more now that the kids are order. Working on an impreza for rally with a friend.

Quote
Greg Donovan

Quote
RnJ

Quote
Greg Donovan
Same Ryan that codrove for Bob?

Still me. How have you been Greg?

Doing well, getting back involved with rally more now that the kids are order. Working on an impreza for rally with a friend.

Yup. Kids. Me too. Don't have time to go in circles every weekend, so I'm going back to the 2 rally a year program.

It'd be a lot easier for me if there was a good platform to put a sbc in, but the old ford will do.
Distributor is in a better location I guess.

Quote
RnJ
It'd be a lot easier for me if there was a good platform to put a sbc in

I've got most of a volvo 240 you could put one in. Throw some volvo penta valve covers on and no one would know its not supposed to be there.

Quote
Carl S

Quote
RnJ
It'd be a lot easier for me if there was a good platform to put a sbc in

I've got most of a volvo 240 you could put one in. Throw some volvo penta valve covers on and no one would know its not supposed to be there.

I don't want to be sleeping in it. I'm going to build this rustang and see how that goes.


Where would one get the weld in 4 link mounts to cut into the floor?