A1 VW Scirocco suspension help... springs still rubbing... John V???

Hey guys... you may have seen my post in the "what did you do to the rally car today" thread. Picked up a 1984 Scirocco rally car that needs some TLC. It's only ran one event, then been parked for several years. I didn't get it from the original owner/builder, so I don't know all the details on things like suspension.

It has Bilstein coilovers front/rear. Pretty high spring rates (came with 325/200) for rally though. When I got it, the fronts were rubbing. The guy who'd bought it and sat on it for the last 3 years had only recently driven it, and when I discovered the rubbing wheels he commented "oh, that would explain the burning rubber smell.

Rubs with 14x6J 38 ET rims w/ 185/60R14 tires. Just clears with 13x4.5J 45ET rims w/ 155/80R13 tires. I was hoping swapping to some shorter springs (10" would help, but even with one inch of preload, it's still too close for my liking. Something has to be wrong... I'm wondering if this is simply the wrong suspension for the car... if someone has swapped on a different set of hubs/knuckles, or if the struts are intended for a later generation VW with a higher-offset on the hub/knuckle.

Running spacers on the tires isn't an option... I will end up rubbing on the fenders.

Anyone have any ideas? Visually verify it's the wrong suspension/knuckles? I'm contemplating John's original idea of welding longer 'ears' on, but I want to be sure the camber adjustment is retained, and I'm not sure I have time to ship these across the country/continent.

Revised suspension, not rubbing on the 13" tire. Note the aluminum spacer/locating ring I had made to properly center the spring.
http://www.dtrally.info/images/scirocco/norub13.jpg

Revised suspension, rubbing on the 14" tire; you can actually see the groove the previous owner wore in the sidewall.
http://www.dtrally.info/images/scirocco/rub14.jpg

Unmodified passenger side suspension; note lack of locating ring. The marks on the spring are obvious... thats where the tires were rubbing. Doesn't rub on 13", does rub on 14".
http://www.dtrally.info/images/scirocco/passenger1.jpg

Closeup of the hub/strut ears... incase someone can visually confirm that these are not the correct match for eachother.
http://www.dtrally.info/images/scirocco/passenger2.jpg




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2007 02:09AM by dtompsett.

Dumb questions:


1) Why not get smaller diameter springs? These are not outrageously expensive and seems like it would solve the problems and clear the 14" tires. I would think you could get these in lots of places and get the better rates while you are at it. Are these 2.5" ID springs? (I see the .250. notation in the middle of the part number.) 2.25' ID springs are out there.

(You might need an adapter for the top if the top seats are of a larger inner diameter, but it looks like you have the machine shop resources handy.)


2) Any problem beating out the fenders a bit for tire clearance? It's a Scirocco!

Regards,
Mark B.

starion887 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dumb questions:
>
>
> 1) Why not get smaller diameter springs? These are
> not outrageously expensive and seems like it would
> solve the problems and clear the 14" tires. I
> would think you could get these in lots of places
> and get the better rates while you are at it. Are
> these 2.5" ID springs? (I see the .250. notation
> in the middle of the part number.) 2.25' ID
> springs are out there.

I could do this, but if you look at the 2nd pic (rub14.jpg), you'll notice how close the tire is to the adjuster. If those were intended for 2.25" springs, they still sit way too close to the strut in my opinion. Plus, I have lots of 2.5" springs kicking around. (Yes, they are 2.5" springs).


> (You might need an adapter for the top if the top
> seats are of a larger inner diameter, but it looks
> like you have the machine shop resources handy.)
>
>
> 2) Any problem beating out the fenders a bit for
> tire clearance? It's a Scirocco!

Not much fender room to begin with... and this means running spacers, which I don't think I should need. There is plenty of room for the suspension to move back towards the inner fender.

>
> Regards,
> Mark B.

dtompsett Wrote:
Fold the lip ratchet the thing down on a trailer and get a baseball bat and roll the fenders.

Longer ears, which you can fab yourself, leave the knuckle/hubs in the same postion, the strut body is moved inwards but all the working stuff is in the same place.
That's how all the real big nasty stuff does it.

CHANGE THE TOP MOUNTS NOW, they're actually shittier than Fords, and that's hard to do.
May take some spacers or something but look at using Sub-a-rat top mounts

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John... suggestions for making longer ears? These ones are stamped to have the profile for the offset camber washer on the top bolt. (http://www.dtrally.info/images/scirocco/passenger2.jpg)

And worst case... if I disassembled the strut (removed the bilstein insert) and sent just the threaded tubes to you, what would be the cost and turnaround time to have them modified? Drop me an email at dtompsett@hotmail.com if you want to keep it off-list.

Shittier than ford... so even shittier than the Audi mounts? Thats hard to do! Got a pic of retrofitting subaru top mounts to the VW's?

dtompsett Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I could do this, but if you look at the 2nd pic
> (rub14.jpg), you'll notice how close the tire is
> to the adjuster. If those were intended for 2.25"
> springs, they still sit way too close to the strut
> in my opinion. Plus, I have lots of 2.5" springs
> kicking around. (Yes, they are 2.5" springs).
>
>
Yeah I looked at that picture a coupla times and don't see any issue with the tires being that close to the adjusters; you'd have to bend the knuckle (nearly impossible) or have the bearings start to completely fall apart to have a rub there, and who would care about the tires at that point?

Understood on the 'having springs' thing; I vote for the fender mods...!

Best of luck in getting ready!
Mark B.

Hey we invented this forum so we don't have to be namby pamby about discussing thing, eh?
FAR too much "OOoohhh I've got a secret.....but I can't say anything now (tee hee)" elsewhere

It's not like we're discussion the slow motion Coup d' Etat that the Master Evil Doer Dick Cheney has been running since 9/11â„¢ or WMD and FUEL RODS as justification for a unilateral, unprovoked attack on a country that Condy, Schwarztiekoph, Colin Powell all testified less than a year before this mess started that Iraqs military was "seriously degraded" compared to before Bush Daddy kicked their Rag-headed ass.

OK I gotta cornfess old MkI and Sciroccos sheetmetal isn't imprinted in my brain too clearly ( and that begs the quesations "Is anything imprinted" and highlights the assuption of a brain---often an iffy presumption, eh) but on the desirable MkII shells they have a conical truncated cone-like stamping in the shell where the top mount mounts. I say saw the offending volcanco crater cone thing off.
The Sub-a-rat top mount itself has the cone-u-lar protuberance growing ourt of the triangual plate. It has a plain ball bearing with a 15mm ID.

They're very similar to nearly any other Jap top mount which hain't surprising since KYB seems to have the OEM contract for EVERYBODY, its just that Subiesplat has used the same things since those old Loyales at least in the mid 80s so they're commoner than dogsheet on the front lawn, and they don't fail even on some fairly rapid, very portly 1300kg Superprats, so they oughter last for centuries on a MkI or MkII Fau Vee.

For the rest I stink you should give me a ring, I can prolly have some ears flame cut and send those YOU weld them on, we can talk about the process faster than I type.
You do speak Swengleski, or some other languages dontcha?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John... would call, but I'm busy at work. Much easier for me to bounce around typing a response between work.

Based on this pic: http://dtrally.info/images/scirocco/passenger2.jpg

I would cut off the existing ears, weld on the new onces, gusset the tops. Working it out in my head how I'd do it... cut off old, bolt new ears to hub, hang suspension from the car, get it all squared up how I think it should be, tack top/bottom on both ears, remove, weld.

This allows me to make ears with an extra 1/2 inch of space needed... rather than the spacer I had drawn up: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2246/1797680616_ccabf7fd35_o.jpg
1.57" offset... due to needing to clear bolt heads.

Only problem I have, the current ears are a wrap-around stamped steel. Do I grind off the whole thing (PITA!), or just cut the ears flush with the strut body, clean it up, weld new ears on.

If it's as simple as straight ears... I could draw it up and have the local shop I use make me something... far more accurate than me with a tape measure, 4.5" grinder, and a drill press. Wouldn't mind some design suggestions... steel thickness.

Means I lose the built-in offset-washer camber adjustment feature. Slot the holes, use a regular bolt, adjust camber with the "loosen a bit, smack w/ hammer, remeasure. Repeat as necessary".

dtompsett Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John... would call, but I'm busy at work. Much
> easier for me to bounce around typing a response
> between work.
Easier for YOU!!.
You work with one of these things, I don't and I bet you type faster and better, I don't.
I talk much faster than i hunt and peck and can therefore explain far more in far less time, so its better for me, capiche?
>
> Based on this pic:
>
> I would cut off the existing ears, weld on the new
> onces, gusset the tops. Working it out in my head
> how I'd do it... cut off old, bolt new ears to
> hub, hang suspension from the car, get it all
> squared up how I think it should be, tack
> top/bottom on both ears, remove, weld.

Yeah exactly, get the wheel or flat mounting face at 0 gregrees at the ride hgt you will use, easy with a t square and bubble level
>
> This allows me to make ears with an extra 1/2 inch
> of space needed... rather than the spacer I had
> drawn up:
> 1.57" offset... due to needing to clear bolt
> heads.
>
> Only problem I have, the current ears are a
> wrap-around stamped steel. Do I grind off the
> whole thing (PITA!), or just cut the ears flush
> with the strut body, clean it up, weld new ears
> on.

In the past for onesey twoseies I cut the weld on the lathe but I've been mostly concerned with excising the ears and saving them, cause i make new thick wall chrome-moly tubes.
Hell animalise the ears off any way that works, THEY can do wrop around, we can do a bit thicker and box them.
>
> If it's as simple as straight ears... I could draw
> it up and have the local shop I use make me
> something... far more accurate than me with a tape
> measure, 4.5" grinder, and a drill press.
> Wouldn't mind some design suggestions... steel
> thickness.

Super accuracy isn't needed, just make them all the same. I drill all ears at one pass then sometimes mill one hole oblong, in one set up so they are all the same.
>
> Means I lose the built-in offset-washer camber
> adjustment feature. Slot the holes, use a regular
> bolt, adjust camber with the "loosen a bit, smack
> w/ hammer, remeasure. Repeat as necessary".

Show me a detail shot of that I can maybe think of a way to retain it.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Best I can do...

http://dtrally.info/images/scirocco/passenger2.jpg

http://dtrally.info/images/scirocco/passenger1.jpg


The stamped outer rib, and the stamped 'nub' both are used for the offset washer. Turn it one way, washer forces against the outer rib and pulls the spindle inwards, increasing -ve camber. turn it another way, washer forces against the inner nub and forces the spindle outward increasing +ve camber.

(These photos are taken from the wrong side... you're seeing the nut, which has a normal washer on the head. Don't have any pics handy of the other side showing the offset washer on the bolt head.)

It seems to me that a small spacer and maybe some attack style on the fender is a much, much easier solution.

Or just run 13" wheels and call it good.

---

Grant Hughes

13's severely limits my tire selection... I currently have NO 13" gravel tires, and only a few 13" snow tires. However, 14's, I have a larger selection of. Plus, means I can't upgrade to the 10.1" rotors up front.

Then put a spacer on the hub to bring the wheel out a little bit and call it a day. Sounds alot easier and less likely to cause more problems than cutting the stock ears and welding new one on.

---

Grant Hughes

Bending knuckles is quite easy on the MkI cars, I bent one on my rally scirocco. The knuckles are very small compared to the other generation cars, especially the part that the strut bolts to. the problem with switching to another knuckle off say a mkII or mkIII is the ball joint. They changed the pin size and also changed the way they bolt into the arm on a mkII so you can't update the ball joint and therefore cannot update the knuckle, unless you customize the A-arms.

Why do you need 10.1" brakes on a scirocco, especially on gravel? I rallied one for a couple of years with stock 9.4" brakes and drums in the back and I had plenty of brakes.

I think longer ears may be the way to go. Also you do not need the ecentric washer to adjsut camber on that car. It helps keep it in place after big hits but hole in the top of the knuckle is large enough that you could run a straight bolt and still had plenty of adjustment room for camber. I ran Stock diameter springs on my car so I did not have any tire clearance problems. That being said that car was significantly faster on 13" wheels and tires due to reduced unsprung weight and the better gearing.

I remember solid 9.4's on my Fox... then vented 10.1's on my fox... then vented 10.1's and solid rear discs on my 4kq and 90q... I like bigger brakes...

very bad memories of smoking the front brakes on a fox... once on a off-ramp (new pads, not bed'd in enough), several times during the night on an overnight winter TSD a few years back (yes... winter)... Smoking pads and glowing red rotors on my 90q's is nothing strange for me when I'm out for a spirited drive.

We'll see how well the vented 9.4's on the scirocco hold up.