4G63T into the Colt

Okay... fresh start !

By gones are by gones !!!

The Colt has been in storage since PFR 2006 and I was looking to buy another rally car to replace it... like the Starion in Portland for $4000.

Then after a bit of thought I decided to stuff a 4G63T into the Colt. The tranny is the weak link because the D-50 tranny doesn't handle gobs of torque well, right ?

"Appearantly" the RX7 Turbo 2 tranny with a bell housing from an 87 - 89 B2600 will bolt together and since some 4G54's share the same bolt pattern as the 4G63T they should bolt together as well. It's a bit of work sourcing etc...

The starion / conquest tranny should work as well, the only problem is the neither was ever sold in Canada so it's a parts issue.

What other tranny options would work.

I'm thinking of keeping the 4G63T relatively stock except for the injectors and a 2G mass air for a 1G 6 bolt motor... Unless I can find an EVO 1,2,or 3 4G63T. I'd like to get 280 - 300HP and around the same for torque numbers.

A 70's Galant with EVO power... has a nice ring to it.

I think the 5 link Dana 30 should keep it together ?

I'd appreciate feed back.

Cheers !

Mustafa are you reading this... ?

I'd like to get going on the project asap...





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2007 12:23AM by Morten2.

Hey Morten

Don't worry about sourcing an EVO 4G63, they're all but the same as the 2G US spec ones -- if you're looking for the stoutest one, the 1G ones 90-92, also known as a "six bolt", are the sturdiest, better rods and no issues with "crankwalk".

For your power requirements, the turbo to get would be the EVO 3 16G, a popular upgrade with the ricer kiddies, about $500 brand new from any one of a dozen US vendors. There is an EVO 3 16G GT that some folks were selling a bit cheaper, it was a lower quality Chinese knock-off that was said to be functionally OK, but it's probably best to stick with a genuine Mitsu turbo. The EVO 3 exhaust manifold and exhaust housing are also a good way to upgrade, the originals are slightly less efficient and usually cracked. Injectors in the 550cc to 650cc range should work for you and you'll need an APEXi SAFC unit, if you're keeping the stock ECU, to fool it into playing nicely with the new MAF and larger injectors. You'll need a decent fuel pump, Walbro make a 255lph inline unit that would suffice, an adjustable fuel pressure regulator Aeromotive's are $150 or so, SARD's are ~$100 on ebay and every bit as good -- you'll need to figure out the fuel connections, and add a return line to your fuel cell. With these bits and a $40 manual boost controller, spun to 18psi or so, you'll have the 300 hp/tq you're looking for.

As for the tranny, my friend Alex at Dent Sport tried the D50 and Starion trannies and broke both -- if you can make the Mazda one work that sounds like a decent option -- otherwise Kennedy engineering, http://www.kennedyeng.com/, can pretty much adapt anything to anything and has been doing so for a bazillion years -- if you could find a way to get a T5 connected to it that would probably be your cheapest and easiest long term solution as there is tons of support for them and since they're the "small-block chevy" of transmissions they're cheap cheap cheap -- the short end of $1000 will buy you a brand new unit with the input and output shaft of your choice from Summit and a few other vendors.

Cheers, Ted

---

Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly creative man -- Sir Alec

Hi Morten,

I would not go for that high a HP number on your Colt. We run slightly lower numbers in our Starion, and with an independent, LSD rear, and a heavier car at that, we are limited as to what we can practically put to the ground with 2WD. High 100's to low 200's is about all you will be able to practically use and drive with a lighter car, unless you are a Stig type driver. (And he wouldn't need it.)

I would advise you stick with lower HP and boost numbers of 14-15 psi max and keep the reliability up. Go with a 14G or 16G upgrade only so that the turbo response is faster. We found the 14g from Top End Performance to be the best for response off of idle; the current 16G + that they sell is slower but does have higher overall boost and flow capability. Either will get you what you need.

The Starion trannie can be strengthened very simply by replacing the stock stamped steel oil pan with a thick aluminum one. These used to be for sale, but are easy to fab from 3/8" to 1/2" AL plate. We have been running the same trannie for many, many events with no issues, at 250+ HP pushing a heavy car.

If you do go for a T5, the 'World Class' Ford types are much more common and are the ones that are sought. You can swap certain GM gearsets in, swap output shafts to get the splines you want, and get a good close-ratio set in the Ford case. In my book, parts availability and the closr-ratio gears are the things that would drive one towards a T5. However, by the time that you consider clutches and bell housings and adapters, pilot bushings, shifter locations, clutch set-up, this is not a trivial coversion to do from scratch. If it were me, I would stick with something that bolts right up for now, to get the car going again.

I don't know the source of your Dana30 rear, but they are not the strongest in the Dana line. That is another reason to not push up towards the 300 hp range; I don't think it will be durable.

Best of luck!
Mark B.

Thanks for the info guys... I'll probably have some more questions in the foreseeable future.

The 300 / 300 numbers are what I'd like to got because I'll be driving the car on the street albiet only occasionally. I'm not very familiar with turbo's having only had a stock 1991 MR 2 and recently got a Mazdaspeed3 that's stock.

Manual boost controlers, etc... I've never had one or anything else along those lines. So I guess what I'm saying is that I'm a turbo newbie and don't know a lot.

Is it possible to build a engine that pushes 300/300 and then "detune it" for a dirt event where the turbo spools up quickly and provides lots of bottom to midrange torque. I don't want to start modifying the internals.

Is the mentioned 18 psi a safe consertive level of boost ?

I'll have to check the gas tank I have for volume and may need a larger fuel cell. Generally for the type of set up that I'm striving for... for size of cell would you run.

I just got the car home, not having seen it in almost a year. It feels good and I'm looking forward to updating the drivetrain as well as going through the car.

Does anyone know of a 4G63T with the set up that I'm looking for that's for sale ? I'd prefer this route as opposed to scouring the wrecking yards.

Oh... the Dana 30 is out of a Volvo.

You may be setting yourself up for a much bigger project and more of a pain in the ass than you realize.

You will be rotating the engine 90 degrees. You'll need custom motor mounts, bell housing, intake and exhaust manifolds, etc.

If you really want to try it, buy a turbo first gen Eclipse or Talon turbo car to source everything off of.

You'd probably be just as well to get a V8

---

Grant Hughes

That thing got a HEMI? It is a Dodge, after all.

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

18 psi is not conservative in my book; 13-14 is conservative. The torque & power difference between 14 and 18 psi is considerable, but so are the stresses and strains on the engine.

Mnaual boost controllers basically 'leak off' some of the boost level in the tube that leads from the boosted intake tract to the boost controllers port. I.e, you can have 15 psi actual boost, but, after this controlled, adjustable 'leak-off', the boost controller sees, say, only 12 psi. BTW, the boost controller referred to here is a mechanical diaphragm type, which opens the turbo wastegate and dumps some of the exhaust pressure driving the turbo to limit the boost levels. (If you saw it once, you would instantly understand.)

I would listen a lot to Grant; what you are proposing is a big project. It would be TONS, TONS easier in your Colt to use a turbo/intercooled Conquest/Starion engine and trannie. The block is so similar to what you have now and the engine/trannie mount up basically the same. Parts are plentiful; we can share a decent formula. The Starion engine is basically a much better block to start with than the truck equivalent 2.6L: better oil control and pickup, piston skirt oilers built in, etc. Use the later ('88-'89) ECU and mid'87 or onward injection set-up, and you can run up to about 18 psi with the stock fule control stuff.

BtW, you will have to change the fuel system for any FI system over what you have had with carbs. The pumps and fuel pressures are RADICALLY different bewteen webers and FI.

Regards,
Mark B.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2007 03:51PM by starion887.

Thanks for the input.

One of my main motivating factors in changing the engine is the readily availability of parts. And the justification... since I'm spending the money I may as well get something that'll put a smile on my face when behind the wheel.

Mark I had considered the 4G54T from the starion / conquest but since neither ever made it north of the 49th... I could potentially run back into a parts issue.

I want to get the car to the point of being able to go to Napa and buying parts that are likely to be in stock or not far away. This helps at Rallies as well when components break that are not in my parts bin.

The car was well built in 1987 to where one could go to the wreckers and pick up parts that were readily available "at the time". Now 20 years later I feel it's time to re-fresh the car since I've decided to keep it.

The idea of putting a 4G63T in it came out of a discussion I had with Charlie from Function First Motorsports in VT. The swap is not as rare as you may think and has been done in Australia, New Zealand, etc. Charlie has made conversion parts ofr the swap. Currently he's installing a 6G72 into his colt.

I don't think the swap would be easy but it would give me reliability and parts availability.

Mark just for the sake of discussion... are there parts for the starion / conquest 4G54 that swap over from other Mitsu engines that would have been available in Canada ?

You mentioned the oil pan being a weak link of the starion boxes and the fabrication of an aluminum one eliminates the weak link (did I get that right). How are the gear sets ?





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2007 07:00PM by Morten2.

The biggest things in my mind are:
What tranny and how. Needs to be strong, RWD, and pointed the right way. If an adapter exists for it now then you're stoked.

Pointing everything the opposite way they point now. 4G63 was transversely mounted. The only things forward facing are the accessories when you rotate it. Your thermostat and such are going to be near the firewall. The exhaust could be okay with a custom tubular manifold or possibly even the stock ones depending upon where it ends up (enough space for downpipe without firewall modifications). The intake manifold now sticks the throttle body directly into the firewall as well. You'll need a custom one.

That being said, the 4G63 is widely used. I've seen one in a Merkur actually in RWD format. It is doable and they are cheap and can make gobs of power cheaply and easily. There may be many of the parts you need available off the shelf.

I just don't know that it will ever be worth it. May be better off just buying a $500 Merkur and swapping everything from it into your car. 300 hp/tq is easy with the Ford 2.3 and you get cheap and strong tranny options with the T5 upgrade.

---

Grant Hughes

The one good thing about all Mitsu family engines; Mitsu changed parts parts over a long time for everything, so one part that is used in 1980 has a 50% chance of being still in use in 1990. Starion engine parts have a pretty good availability due to that, and due to the following of specialty parts still out there.

If I were to go with that engine I would:
- get 2+ short blocks to be sure I have pans and cranks and rods and misc parts parts like oil pickups and piston oilers
- the trick head is to buy a non Jet-valve head; that eliminates the Jet valve cracking issue (though we've never had it); with a couple of spare heads worth of parts, you are set for a long time
- the balance shaft eliminator kits are NAPA parts as are rod and crank bearings
- timing chains and rubbing blocks and gaskets are all avialable, and will likely be for a while since these have some commonality with the truck blocks
- the turbos have a lot of commonality with those used on other mitsu stuff
- there is a good aftermarktet still for hop-up parts
- the ECUs and MAF's are what I would also strive to get 2-3 copies each
- we using VW aircooled forged pistons from JVL so no problem there!
- clutches are avialable
- I need to keep and eye on oil pumps; the OEM ones are reportedly better than the aftermarket ones
- New Starion stock injectors may be a problem; I have not checked in a while. It's a throttle body injection not individual injectors.
- Fuel pumps are Bosch units as are the 02 sensors.

Look on the TPE site for alot fo Starion engine parts: www.racetep.com

In looking over this list, I would get a couple of complete engines and ECU/FI systems, but then again, that is what I would do for a 4G63 too. The low cost way to spare engines and FI components is to have a few cores around from which you could pull parts and do new/re- builds. I honestly do not worry about parts for engines because:
- a lot of substitutes can be done
- you are never going to replace just one part of an engine at a rally; if you want to have a spare, you have a whole spare engine with you
Outside of that, there is plenty of time to hunt down odd parts while things are at the machine shop

As for Starion trannies, you want the one from the intercooled later models. 1st gear is mucho better and 2nd is a bit better. These gears are about average for closeness; 3rd is a bit taller than optimum. (You used to be able to get aftermarket 2-3 gersets that are notably better, but they are probably only in AUS if anywhere at all anymore.) Stock intercooled gears: 1-3.369; 2-2.035; 3-1.360; 4- 1.00; 5-0.836. Put a 4.11 gear in your rear axle and this trannie gear set will be decent: approx 105 MPH in 5th at 5000 rpm; engine pulls strong to over 5000 rpm even with a small turbo (that spools up quick).

You won't need as much meesing round to put this in. Either approach will require you to seriously upgrade electical systems (alternator) for the extra electric load for the FI system and ECU and electric fans). And you will have some serious new electrical harness work to do. The 4G63 should be about 75 lbs lighter (just my estimate, BTW). Oh, Starion intercoolers sare much bigger than Talon ones; should be no problem finding an aftermarket one. Either way, you have to figure out a mounting system for either, assuming you want the intercooler. (I sure would not do it without one.)

The 2.3L option that Grant mentions is intriguing. I would think those engines parts would be out there for a loooong time, much longer than the 2.6L. I would look to see if your rules would allow you to run Ford engine in a Mitsu/Dodge. BTW there are some T5's to avoid; the 3.95 1st in a lot of the 2.3L US ford NWC T5's would not be good.

Regards,
Mark B.

Grant I've always been under the impression the the engine has to be of the same manufacturer as the chasis in order to be legal. Did I miss something ?

Admitedly taking a transversely mounted engine and installing it north south is not as easy as just staying with a north south variation. In doing research into the various options... the 4G64 came into mind. Basically a 2.4L truck engine as far as I know. Some of the DSM guys take the 4G64 and install a 4G63 head on it, bolt the turbo on and the results are not bad. Although a bit of reliability issues seem to happen. Then again most of them a 1/4 mile folk that turn the boost waaaay up with sometimes catastropic effect.

Any of your guys familiar with the 4G64 with a 1g 4G63 head, manifold, and turbo ?

Haven't you just had a couple years of headaches and spent $1000's dealing with some hybrid POS? Why would you even be considering getting into another one?

My philosophy is keep is as stock as possible and keep it reliable.
I'm running a nissan SR20DET is a 240SX in Group 5. The only engine mods are a decent front mount intercooler, with short piping, a 3" exhaust, and a decent clutch that I can abuse as much as I want. I have 220hp at the wheels and it's been 100% reliable for 6 or 7 events this season.

Sure the gear ratios aren't optimal, and sure I could have used moer power maybe twice realistically and 100 time in my head, but we have finihed every event except the one we were upside down.

There must be a reasonable engine/trans that you could pick up from a JDM importer that is North South from the factory and has in the range of 200hp.

-Martin.

http://www.japaneseauto.com/mitstoyotatransadaptors.html

This is into a BMW E30, but can give you an idea of what doing a 4G63 sideways entails and how this guy addresses many of the problems I mentioned.
http://b18c5.org/eric/bmw/

Also looks like Burscur makes some shit for RWD converts.
https://secure.buschurracing.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=22_98&osCsid=cc5ef58e4841e2cdaa949cdfd775c224

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Grant Hughes



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2007 03:13PM by NoCoast.

Grant thanks for the links !

And to Mark for all the info.

Martin... I agree with you. If there was such a thing it would be where I'd be looking because you're right - I've spent 1000's, have finshed one event, dnf'd 2, and am into it for $12K+. It's be easy buying a car, like "Mad Kiwi's" Galant for $9500... but I really like the Colt, even though there's no heat, it fogs, up, and the window regulators are shit and the windows don't roll all the way up straight... and oh yeah the engine / tranny are fucked too. : )

I don't want to park it, I really like the car and just want to get it right so I can do what I intended to do... race it and have fun.

MRWmotorsports Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> There must be a reasonable engine/trans that you
> could pick up from a JDM importer that is North
> South from the factory and has in the range of
> 200hp.
>
> -Martin.

Not sure about "from an importer" but the Starion/Conquest 2.6L intercooled is "it". The 2.6L truck drivetrain conversion is not a worthwhile intermediate step, IMO.

Any conversion from carbs/normally aspirated to turbo/intercooled, fuel injected will involve a lot of extra stuff. Keeping it north/south eliminates the other problems.

And if the drag guys are doing it, I would move the OTHER way. They are crazy about uber HP for <15 seconds in the same way that we are generally crazy about hurtling through the woods. Only problem is: when they blow an engine, the likely reaction is "Did you see all the cool smoke? I can't believe it, MAN!" For us, all that cool smoke means a loss of $600-$2000 on an event, loss of vacation for a long tow, waiting (in the dark sometimes) to retrive the car, and them more $$ losses for anew engine and figuring out what went wrong.

KIS, Morten, my man!! And I like the Colt too. That's why I built a C2 Safari based Arrow for my son's first car! (Same chassis as the later Colts.) It's now being happily rally-x'd in MA by some taking very good care of it, BTW.

Regards,
Mark B.