Oz rocks

I had trouble interpreting your last sentence as to which way you meant it, must be the Canadian to American translation.

I haven't heard what the GT is running but I'd guess like everyone else it'll be stupid fast. Orders is fast in an Evo also, and I'd bet he'd be fast in most anything. Speed in rally is definitely a learned item. Some people have the talent to learn speed easily, others never get it. Once people see how fast Reeves can wheel an underpowered or maybe just adequately powered car then they can re-think their situation. Granted it is a nicely prepared car but still has to be driven hard to keep the speed up.

I love the Corolla rebirth going on here! I remember White and Holt in an AE86 gpA car beating Grant Whiting in his RX-3 on local roads, no easy task. Those cars can fly when pushed.

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heymagic
I had trouble interpreting your last sentence as to which way you meant it, must be the Canadian to American translation.

Yes, apparently I suck at words lately That's ok though haha.

Either it's just me, or 2wd does seem to be seeing a slight rebirth (which IMO, I credit in large part to max-attack and duplessis). It is great enough that it seriously has me considering moving into the class if I can find a car.

I wonder what the folks at CARS can make of Reeves embarassng so many G5, Sp and Open cars? Maybe they might think about a rule to protect all of those cars from furriners in rented R2s.

The economy is still slow, entry fees keep rising. With the revitalized Mustang, Camaro on the streets, the excitement over the FRZ there is some reason for 2wd to start coming back. Much of Subarus line-up now is CVT eguipped (and that just screams fun...).

Back in the day we knew Buffum, or Bruno and the Audis would nearly always win. So be it. The GTX in Millens hands was fast, but the 'normal' GTX guys and Talon drivers were fodder for the fast 2wd guys. The more refined WRX must have changed that while I was gone, or the fast guys just 'upgraded'. Really sweet to see the rebirth and I hope it continues. They only made so many WRX and Sti cars and the flat brimmers must have 1/2 of them trashed by now plus the rally contribution. Extinction is on the way.

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heymagic
I wonder what the folks at CARS can make of Reeves embarassng so many G5, Sp and Open cars? Maybe they might think about a rule to protect all of those cars from furriners in rented R2s.

The economy is still slow, entry fees keep rising. With the revitalized Mustang, Camaro on the streets, the excitement over the FRZ there is some reason for 2wd to start coming back. Much of Subarus line-up now is CVT eguipped (and that just screams fun...).

Back in the day we knew Buffum, or Bruno and the Audis would nearly always win. So be it. The GTX in Millens hands was fast, but the 'normal' GTX guys and Talon drivers were fodder for the fast 2wd guys. The more refined WRX must have changed that while I was gone, or the fast guys just 'upgraded'. Really sweet to see the rebirth and I hope it continues. They only made so many WRX and Sti cars and the flat brimmers must have 1/2 of them trashed by now plus the rally contribution. Extinction is on the way.

Speaking from my very limited two years of RWD rally experience, I have never felt like my car has enough power, every uphill, every corner exit, I always wish I had more. There is something to be said for under powered cars teaching you to drive faster. I think that is what is so tempting about AWD turbo cars, they do a very good job of cleaning up your mistakes. Just point it and power out. Ask any of the guys who have switched from 2WD to AWD, whether they were talented or not and they will tell you it's fun and they go faster. Anyway, drunken rambling aside. There's no such thing as too much power, at least I haven't found it yet. There are things you can do with a small little motor that makes it quicker, our Corollas use a very peppy rear end, to bring the gears closer. The Fiesta R2's use a million dollar gearbox. Adam and I talked to Brendan for a while about the car and he definitely stressed how important the gearbox was.

All of that fun stuff said, Brendan is a prime example of someone who has grown up driving fast. He is naturally talented, and happened to be lucky enough to grow up somewhere that encouraged him to keep going. No one should be surprised that if you put a talented driver, in a $50,000 car up against a bunch of weekend assholes who think they're fast because they grew up on a farm road, someone is going to get schooled. There is something to be said for how well those Fiesta's are made for rally, but if you put me behind the wheel of one with no cares I'm still not going to get even close to Brendan's times.

How does this all relate to Will and the 86? I don't know, I'm drunk and leave for Mexico in 6 hours. Adam and I have been begging people for an FR-S since before they were available for sale, it's a sick platform. Will is a talented driver, who has proven he can move quickly in a RWD turbo, Nameless made a great call using him to show off their platform. I just wish Adam was able to finish his new car before then to actually see the difference. Some people got to see him with a little more power in my car at Oregon Trail, I'm a little terrified of what he's going to do with a Beams. The End

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Speaking from my very limited two years of RWD rally experience, I have never felt like my car has enough power, every uphill, every corner exit, I always wish I had more.

It's a stockish 1.6 with emission cams, isn't it? What do you really expect?

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There is something to be said for under powered cars teaching you to drive faster.

Something. Not sure what but something.

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I think that is what is so tempting about AWD turbo cars, they do a very good job of cleaning up your mistakes. Just point it and power out.

Half right...The AWD part doesn't affect the engine or its power curve..
It just so happens that they have nice pent roof , 4 valve heads with are intended to see lots of pressure, they're at least 2.0 liter, and most guys, these days aren't putting moster turbos and stupid cams in them so they spool early and pull ---they make TORQUE....since the make torque the gears in the box have a much easier job of sustaining acceleration----look at the ratios posted here previously...
They also have reasonably short enough (for a turbo cat making lots of torque) final drive ratios from 4.1 to 4.44...so they aren't 'hurt" so much using tall 64-65 cm tires.

There are plenty of turbo 2wd cars which also work real well when people don't fuck them up with "brilliant ideas" off Inter-snet forums.

AWD is a nice advantage right at launch and out of slow corners, slow like hairpin slow.
We don't have lots of truely slow corners...

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Ask any of the guys who have switched from 2WD to AWD, whether they were talented or not and they will tell you it's fun and they go faster.

Didn't we just cover the idea that the Subies and Evobitchis are TURBOcharged and make effortless torque???

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Anyway, drunken rambling aside. There's no such thing as too much power, at least I haven't found it yet.

There may not be, but there is certainly a thing called more power than can be applied with two wheels...
And there's a point when more benefit is found working to make a nice BROAD power delivery than more power..
Guys building works spec motors in some places where the field is traditionally much faster---these are men who are paid by the factories to develop motors seem to be in agreement that around 220-230 is "enough" HP, and after that the shape of the power curve is more rewarding (of quicker SS times)

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There are things you can do with a small little motor that makes it quicker, our Corollas use a very peppy rear end, to bring the gears closer.

This is a popular misconception, to the point of being a old wives platitude..
Here's the first speed in gears chart I could find:


Look at the rpm difference--how "close" 1st is to 2nd at 2000 rpm in first..shift and the rpm drops maybe 800 rpm.... look at it at 8000 rpm..shift and it drops 3000, that's 3.75 times more drop--- The gears are effective "father away" and it has nothing to do with the wise choice of short axle ratio..gears are levers and 5.35 is a bigger level--multipling torque more than a 4.1 gear, or a 3.64 by 30% for the 4.1...
A 5v making 120 ft/lbs of torque run thru a 5.35 is multiplied to (ignoring the gearboxs' multiplication) becoming 155.8 ft/lbs

That's why the car is quicker..

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The Fiesta R2's use a million dollar gearbox. Adam and I talked to Brendan for a while about the car and he definitely stressed how important the gearbox was.

But that's only because the thing is only done via M-Sport...sole supplier can charge whatever they want.

A gearset with same-ish rations for a RWD box like the Ford Type 9 that is the default box for Corolla is under $2000---plus a bellhousing and propshaft mods..

Get one

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All of that fun stuff said, Brendan is a prime example of someone who has grown up driving fast. He is naturally talented,

Why do people always come up with this nonsense about naturally talented...

He has YEARS of experience is well built vehicles...in an local scene with reasonably good depth of talent. lots of miles, lots of time. YEARS...

That's now Adams advantage. He chose a good simple car and piled up the SS miles and does pretty OK considering the extremely low spec of the thing aside from suspension and axle ratio.

What is this American mania for attributing success to "natural" talents...and why the complete discounting of experience, routine, training?

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and happened to be lucky enough to grow up somewhere that encouraged him to keep going.

And why luck? He made decisions years ago and prioritized the driving and spent years accumulating bazzilioons of SS miles.
Seat Time.

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No one should be surprised that if you put a talented driver, in a $50,000 car up against a bunch of weekend assholes who think they're fast because they grew up on a farm road, someone is going to get schooled. There is something to be said for how well those Fiesta's are made for rally, but if you put me behind the wheel of one with no cares I'm still not going to get even close to Brendan's times.

Maybe its just seat time and determination...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham

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The Fiesta R2's use a million dollar gearbox. Adam and I talked to Brendan for a while about the car and he definitely stressed how important the gearbox was.

But that's only because the thing is only done via M-Sport...sole supplier can charge whatever they want.

A gearset with same-ish rations for a RWD box like the Ford Type 9 that is the default box for Corolla is under $2000---plus a bellhousing and propshaft mods..

Get one

I think it would be interesting to ask someone like Brendan how much slower he thinks a normal, H-pattern box with the same ratios would be in the same car. It seems like the biggest reason that the R2 gearbox is $$$$$$ (aside from the M-Sport single supplier thing) is because it's a sequential - and while I'm quite certain that, given the same gear ratios, the sequential box is faster, I doubt it's that much faster.

Perhaps folks don't realize that, if you buy the right car, you don't have to buy a $texas$ sequential box to get a real close-ratio gearset?

---

KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

so, did some digging and found this - http://www.teamfloral.be/media/fiestaR2/05_Sadev_Gearbox_Manual.pdf - claims to be the Sadev Manual for the R2 gearbox (at least as of 2009, no idea if they've made any changes since then).

The part that I was really looking for - gear ratios:
(tooth counts from the pdf, ratios calc'ed by myself)
1) 36/12 3:1
2) 34/16 2.125:1
3) 28/17 1.647:1
4) 27/20 1.35:1
5) 24/21 1.142:1

FD Options
54/13 4.154:1
53/12 4.417:1
57/12 4.75:1

---

KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

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Aaron Luptak

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john vanlandingham

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The Fiesta R2's use a million dollar gearbox. Adam and I talked to Brendan for a while about the car and he definitely stressed how important the gearbox was.

But that's only because the thing is only done via M-Sport...sole supplier can charge whatever they want.

A gearset with same-ish rations for a RWD box like the Ford Type 9 that is the default box for Corolla is under $2000---plus a bellhousing and propshaft mods..

Get one

I think it would be interesting to ask someone like Brendan how much slower he thinks a normal, H-pattern box with the same ratios would be in the same car. It seems like the biggest reason that the R2 gearbox is $$$$$$ (aside from the M-Sport single supplier thing) is because it's a sequential - and while I'm quite certain that, given the same gear ratios, the sequential box is faster, I doubt it's that much faster.

Perhaps folks don't realize that, if you buy the right car, you don't have to buy a $texas$ sequential box to get a real close-ratio gearset?

In increasing order of Soooper Bitchinness from gross to way way soooper bitchin

Stock huge synchro, wide ratio box

Close ratio synchro is way faster than a stock box.
Dog engagement H pattern---if you do it right--- is WAY faster.

Sequential, dog engagement is more than twice as fast---and importantly, the doofus drivers can't fawk up...memory says somewhere around 0.2 sec/shift

The brainlessness or the shift is a great thing..Think--you're in a thing that is tuned UP and you HAVE TO shift a lot to keep it buzzing. If you don't have to screw around with some pattern, that leave more of our very limited brains to pay attention to the road deciding on the last possible second to brake---don't really have to think about gassin it.
(The above observation is from direct experience--motorcycles have relatively speaking, fantastic sequential shifting, dog engagement, very close ratio gearboxes..one of the reason I regard ALL cars as big clumsy POSs)

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2013 10:47AM by john vanlandingham.

John, your first statement about H pattern dog-box is easy to mis interpret as stating the H pattern Dog is faster than a sequential.

I had to re-read it.

So has anyone driven one of the BRZ's yet?

I'm not sure why people think the sadev box for the R2 is expensive. My understanding is the box itself is ~$8-9K which is actually not that much for a sequential box designed for the car. That's about the same money as people are spending on dog gearsets for other cars!

OK, it doesn't compare to a $200, or free, T5 but it is also a brand new gearbox that needs nothing to be used in the car it was designed for.

I'd also argue the price is lower because of the M-Sport involvement since they have created a demand for a box that would be otherwise a specialty piece. (I'm happy to be proven wrong if someone can show me a similar sequental ff gearbox for less)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2013 10:52AM by Morison.

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aj_johnson
John, your first statement about H pattern dog-box is easy to mis interpret as stating the H pattern Dog is faster than a sequential.

I had to re-read it.

So has anyone driven one of the BRZ's yet?

Is it better-er-er now?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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Morison
I'm not sure why people think the sadev box for the R2 is expensive. My understanding is the box itself is ~$8-9K

Because $8-9k can buy you a whole rally car?

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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Anders Green

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Morison
I'm not sure why people think the sadev box for the R2 is expensive. My understanding is the box itself is ~$8-9K

Because $8-9k can buy you a whole rally car?

Anders

or like 3 or 4 if you're like me

---

"Rally racing makes a heroin addiction look like a vague craving for something salty"

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mellow65

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Anders Green

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Morison
I'm not sure why people think the sadev box for the R2 is expensive. My understanding is the box itself is ~$8-9K

Because $8-9k can buy you a whole rally car?

Anders

or like 3 or 4 if you're like me

is that all? have you cut back?

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john vanlandingham

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aj_johnson
John, your first statement about H pattern dog-box is easy to mis interpret as stating the H pattern Dog is faster than a sequential.

I had to re-read it.

So has anyone driven one of the BRZ's yet?

Is it better-er-er now?

LOL