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Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!

Posted by Anders Green 
MattP
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Re: Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!
October 07, 2016 01:57PM
It's more about the ability to continue after an incident as well as a safety thing. Technically at PFR Tino should of not been able to continue after his roll, the CARS rules state the the window opening has to be either glass opened no more than 1", polycarbonate of equal or greater thickness than that of OEM, or an FIA approved window net. As far as I am aware Duct Tape is none of these things. It's not about winning, it's about being able to finish.



Yes, it's a Ranger.
Xr4Ti, it is rwd and was made in Germany.
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dreamsofjvl
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Re: Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!
October 07, 2016 02:40PM
I never would have even considered it, until I realized that Tino should have been protested and not allowed to run and been dq'd. He got very lucky on that.

Then I realized Hardy and I once had a smashed out side window from a rock from our OWN tire thrown up into the air. So it does happen, and if you are prepping a car that already requires removal of the windows, it MAY be worth it. I'm not saying it is, just MAY be. I'm looking into it for my new shell I am prepping because the amount of pissed off I'd be if I couldn't run due to a single smashed out window would cause serious disturbances in the force. Also consider, one smashed rear window (or a couple side windows) starts getting up to the cost of the plastic windows.

Also, no offense Randy, but Matt is f'in quick. Like, serious speed out of a basically stock STi. I don't even think he has whiz-bangy suspenders on it. Faster than you d00d. Not very fair to shit on him when you haven't been in the game for a while, the speeds now are MUCH quicker in the top 10 then they were 10 years ago. European quick? No, but everyone is substantially stepping up their game, especially in the past 2 years.

North Americans still can't do hairpins for shit though.
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randyzimmer
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Re: Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!
October 07, 2016 02:50PM
Nets are cheap. Give me a Roi on plastic over a mile in seconds x 80 miles and see if that makes a position.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!
October 07, 2016 03:03PM
Quote
randyzimmer
Plastic windows to save rally,
"So polycarbonate windows what's the best way to go? Make your own? If so does anyone have a tutorial on it? Or buy a kit? If so where to buy?"
Last I looked the margin of victory between everyone is minutes. Why spend to do this? People must have money again. Thanks Obama.

You you you ---that's what you are..
Can't you read? Y'all aint that old!

Look:
Quote

the speeds now are MUCH quicker in the top 10 then they were 10 years ago. European quick? No, but everyone is substantially stepping up their game, especially in the past 2 years.

Got it?
Quicker than just last 2 years ago..
Quicker.
Not quick enough that one of the fastest ---who can beat on pure speed all the "Top 10" except Higgins by miltiple whole minutes----is able to beat a kid in his 20s driving a little old 1600cc RWD car with fucking leaf springs in the rear on CARBURATORS, and no more than 190mm travel in his little 40mm inverted Bilsteins, but faster.. See?

But the speeds now are MUCH quicker in the top 10 then they were 10 years ago. European quick? No, but everyone is substantially stepping up their game, especially in the past 2 years.


I don't want to have to lecture you about this again.. Don't try cluttering up this thread with facts and reasoning, its about what will save American Rally..

Clearly the path forward is to spend yourself into long term debt and then win it all back on Subaru's contingency money..
I mean use your head.



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dreamsofjvl
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Re: Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!
October 07, 2016 04:23PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
is able to beat a kid in his 20s driving a little old 1600cc RWD car with fucking leaf springs in the rear on CARBURATORS, and no more than 190mm travel in his little 40mm inverted Bilsteins, but faster.. See?

Honestly, couldn't even understand how you were trying to be insulting. What does any of this mean?

It appears you are randomly alluding to one event out of the 30+ rallies that happen in North America in a year, that someone in a 1600cc rwd carb'd car was fast? Or wasn't fast and finished high due to extenuating circumstances? I don't know? At least point to Ryan Millen in that pig of a 2wd rav4.

Beyond that, doesn't matter. I like Randy, I've co-driven for Randy, and Randy is a good guy. But he is wrong when trying to tell somebody they aren't "fast" enough for X. Matt B. has some serious talent, he's the kind of kid you should love John, doing all the work himself, building his own car, on his own dime, pinching pennies. Having driven with Randy, I could pilot his 2.5RS faster than he did "back in the day". So his opinion somehow has more weight because why? Because he has age? Of all people, you should hate that more than anyone. Oh, because he has experience racing in other series that are not applicable to rally (well shit, that sounds like someone else we know...)?

I brought up pretty practical reasons to do this, namely, that it could DQ you from an event if you break a window, the cost is not outrageous as a one time outlay, it could be viewed as a safety issue (I don't, but some do), and honestly, its like $500usd for 5 windows.

It's WAY down on the list. But if you've already prepped and caged the car, it can be difficult to get weight out of it. Maybe he smashed a window, fucked if I know. But if he is already going through the motions, it makes sense. Or if he just wants to spend the money, its his to spend. I'm prepping a shell. I want it to meet minimum open class weight. I would hate to DNF an event I towed 10k kms round trip for because of a stupid smashed out window. Window nets suck. So dunno what more you want.
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randyzimmer
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Re: Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!
October 07, 2016 04:29PM
Ahhh, where to start... I wasn't shitting on anyone, it was a detached observation that spending cash for little return in speed isn't going to be a good long term way of saving rally. But since PANCHO started it. OT in 2002 was won by Diggins in 2:06 and I was :20 behind. In '16, Diggins won in 1:30 and your hero was :20 behind in 30 less minutes of racing. (and ahead of Lauchlin) Good for him. His results are good with a small effort. What's the guy who's selling his multi-time wrecked and worn-out car for $120K's excuse?
re: hairpins
Mine is at 9:20


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randyzimmer
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Re: Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!
October 07, 2016 04:32PM
I could pilot his 2.5RS faster than he did "back in the day".

http://www.ewrc-results.com/profile.php?p=28459

Hmmm, I don't see any way of comparing finishes since you never do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2016 04:36PM by randyzimmer.
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randyzimmer
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Re: Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!
October 07, 2016 04:48PM
JVL's mailbox is full. Imagine that!

Adam:
I thought we had a good time though and I remember nailing some bits of the event.
http://www.rallyracingnews.com/cars/defi07-results.html
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!
October 07, 2016 05:02PM
Quote
dreamsofjvl
Quote
john vanlandingham
is able to beat a kid in his 20s driving a little old 1600cc RWD car with fucking leaf springs in the rear on CARBURATORS, and no more than 190mm travel in his little 40mm inverted Bilsteins, but faster.. See?

Honestly, couldn't even understand how you were trying to be insulting. What does any of this mean?

It appears you are randomly alluding to one event out of the 30+ rallies that happen in North America in a year, that someone in a 1600cc rwd carb'd car was fast? Or wasn't fast and finished high due to extenuating circumstances? I don't know? At least point to Ryan Millen in that pig of a 2wd rav4.

Beyond that, doesn't matter. I like Randy, I've co-driven for Randy, and Randy is a good guy. But he is wrong when trying to tell somebody they aren't "fast" enough for X. Matt B. has some serious talent, he's the kind of kid you should love John, doing all the work himself, building his own car, on his own dime, pinching pennies. Having driven with Randy, I could pilot his 2.5RS faster than he did "back in the day". So his opinion somehow has more weight because why? Because he has age? Of all people, you should hate that more than anyone. Oh, because he has experience racing in other series that are not applicable to rally (well shit, that sounds like someone else we know...)?

I ..(snip a lot of Adam Vokes ranting about bullshit)t.

No.. Vokes, you don't understand because you are an little self-centered and self referential little know-nothing living in a cultural and spiritual void in the middle of nowhere... same reason none of you so strongly opiniated Calgarians knew nothing about oh say---the CAMS decision to dump restrictor requirements and make it an option.....
You guys are so ignorant of what happens outside of the end of your own noses that you don't have ant idea of what constitutes a yard stick and how to use a yard stick.

I was referring to this:
http://www.ewrc-results.com/final.php?e=24884&t=International-Rally-of-Otago-2015

Last year so you can pull your usual "You don't know anything" bullshit...
Look way down at the DNFs at next to last in the list (and he did continue under their version of Supra-wally)..No 43..

That guy can beat virtually anybody in North America except maybe Higgins..

And he was beating on stages by a 28 year old kid....stage after stage on a very open and fast event---where anybody who thinks---sorry, you're out----would think "Open and fast, sopunds like excellent high hp country"....1.6 liter on carbs, and buggy springs and 40mm, 190 travel Bilsteins.

It is damning proof to anybody with even half a brain that ALL this brou ha ha about "needing"
turbo
4wd
dog boxes
sequential shift
million HP
$8-$14,000 struts
Big AP brakes
lauch control
center diff controllers

New new new shit


Is all bullshit if the guys, the 9 out of your alleged top 10 who have upped their BUDGETS--- cannot finish on the same calender day as Block because Block was beat by a young guy in such a simple, little basic spec car.

In clearer terms---- since I know you have such a hard time understanding even the simplest of concepts real racers readily grasp:
until you and your "top 10" and all the poor suckers in Merikuh's top 10 can beat Block with a nice simple OLD car on carbs and a synchro box and basic shit-just as the young Ned Zedder did,

don't bother with all the complicated and expensive crutches.


.Improve yourself...

Although with you I think there's no reason to bother...


Vokes, there IS Inter-net up there in that moral and spiritual black hole you live in.
Why are you guys so completely ignorant of anything elsewhere? The CAMS making restrictors optional was NEWS in the rest of the world..nobody up there seems to know--or care.

Paddons 1st OVERALL beating the entire normal NZRC field was NEWS in the rest of the world..

And its import and meaning flies right over your heads..
How do you maintain such thorough-going ignorance---and simultaneous belief that you are knowledgeable and "good"?



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dreamsofjvl
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Re: Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!
October 07, 2016 05:47PM
Quote
randyzimmer
Hmmm, I don't see any way of comparing finishes since you never do.

Well, I do sometimes finish, rarely without issues, most outside my control it seems. winking smiley But when were on the road and the car hasn't randomly broken, we're setting decent times.

Quote
randyzimmer
Adam:
I thought we had a good time though and I remember nailing some bits of the event.
http://www.rallyracingnews.com/cars/defi07-results.html

We did, never said we didn't, enjoyed the event, enjoyed rallying with you. But to give someone shit for being slow, when objectively they are faster than you is kind of shitty. That's what you did to Matt B. I get that it's hard for you old guys to apologize when your wrong, but whatever.

Quote
john vanlandingham
No.. Vokes, you don't understand because you are an little self-centered and self referential little know-nothing living in a cultural and spiritual void in the middle of nowhere... same reason none of you so strongly opiniated Calgarians knew nothing about oh say---the CAMS decision to dump restrictor requirements and make it an option.....

Wut? I most certainly did know (was one of the few) and directly made that argument to CARS at the time when they tried to bring in spec race fuel for $900/barrel. But as usual, you'll make nonsense up to justify your odd world view.

Quote
john vanlandingham
You guys are so ignorant of what happens outside of the end of your own noses that you don't have ant idea of what constitutes a yard stick and how to use a yard stick.

Says the guy who thinks his experience racing back in the 80's slowly remotely applies to nowadays (or ever really did apply)?

Quote
john vanlandingham
I was referring to this:
http://www.ewrc-results.com/final.php?e=24884&t=International-Rally-of-Otago-2015

Last year so you can pull your usual "You don't know anything" bullshit...
Look way down at the DNFs at next to last in the list (and he did continue under their version of Supra-wally)..No 43..

That guy can beat virtually anybody in North America except maybe Higgins..

Sure he can. But you are comparing someone who is LITERALLY at the top of the sport in the world to Block. Block is ok and has unlimited funding, combined with how many events of experience under his belt??

Quote
john vanlandingham
And he was beating on stages by a 28 year old kid....stage after stage on a very open and fast event---where anybody who thinks---sorry, you're out----would think "Open and fast, sopunds like excellent high hp country"....1.6 liter on carbs, and buggy springs and 40mm, 190 travel Bilsteins.

That car Haydon runs was probably worth $100k plus. Remember that time in the WRC F2 cars were beating up on the group A cars, or does that slip your brain John? Jesus. So you take a better driver, put him in an excellent car, and let him rip, yea, I expect he probably does pretty well. Block also has this thing with choking under pressure, he never seems to perform when the heat is really on.


Quote
john vanlandingham
until you and your "top 10" and all the poor suckers in Merikuh's top 10 can beat Block with a nice simple OLD car on carbs and a synchro box and basic shit-just as the young Ned Zedder did,

don't bother with all the complicated and expensive crutches.

While I agree with your sentiment, you are making an argument I never made and then arguing against... yourself? About it. But alas, that is lost on you, thinking the voices in your head are real.

Quote
john vanlandingham
.Improve yourself...

That's the goal, and that is what I intend to do. But there are definitely certain experiences that are better than others, and as a poor schmuck like myself, I need to make the events I attend count. There are also certain things that make not much difference to the goal at hand, and a well sorted car certainly allows you to focus on "improving yourself". My car is always brilliant to drive, I've just had some shit luck with mechanical failure. This season.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Paddons 1st OVERALL beating the entire normal NZRC field was NEWS in the rest of the world..

Yea, it was awesome, but he (again), took a $100k car, and beat on a field of group N cars or their approximate equivalents. Its not as incredible as you make it out to be, considering:

1) He is literally world champion material
2) A well sorted, lightweight 2wd car can compete with heavily restricted 4wd cars
3) Block isn't that incredible of a driver, as already highlighted previously

And you have zero real comparison to Block's current talent to the rest of the field, as he has competed in a $400k car vs the rest of us running around in $20k or $30k cars. So yes, quite clearly I have a better grasp of the fields speed then you do because your comparisons are like apples to the friggin sky.
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randyzimmer
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Re: Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!
October 07, 2016 05:59PM
re:

... But to give someone shit for being slow, when objectively they are faster than you is kind of shitty. That's what you did to Matt B. I get that it's hard for you old guys to apologize when your wrong, but whatever.

I never mentioned him at all, just his post about windows that you linked him with. I didn't. I made no other judgement than wasting entry/travel/tire money. Read it again. Now FUCK OFF!
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Jens
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Re: Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!
October 07, 2016 06:10PM
What decade...err... century is this?

It appears nothing changes in rally other than more rules and more money.
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Re: Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!
October 08, 2016 12:47AM
Quote
MattP
It's more about the ability to continue after an incident as well as a safety thing. Technically at PFR Tino should of not been able to continue after his roll, the CARS rules state the the window opening has to be either glass opened no more than 1", polycarbonate of equal or greater thickness than that of OEM, or an FIA approved window net. As far as I am aware Duct Tape is none of these things. It's not about winning, it's about being able to finish.

Actually:
Quote
CARS Rules
Windows in the driver and co-driver doors must not be rolled down more than 2.5 cm during stages. Window safety nets must be used in lieu of having windows rolled-up during stages. (See illustration for proper window net installation). It is highly recommended that all window nets meet FIA article 253.11

There is no 'standard' for window net in use, so there could be an argument that Tino's duct tape net was at worst an improperly installed net. That said, I don't know I would have let him continue at one of my events. While I appreciate the POR sentiment, safety needs to be an overriding concern.
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Re: Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!
October 08, 2016 12:53AM
Spec Fuel and Spec Tires will save rally.
Just read through the GCRs for the Extreme Elite Challenge in Quebec.

Spec Fuel needs to be bought from LCS, including the 91 octane pump gas.

Cars and bikes must run Pirelli brand tires at all times. Exemptions can be applied for, but have to explain why there is no pirelli tire that can be used.

Sanctioned by NASA, but hardly seems Grassroots with spec fuel and tires.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Oooo! The next "this will save rally" is almost here!
October 08, 2016 08:10PM
Quote
randyzimmer
Hmmm, I don't see any way of comparing finishes since you never do.

Quote
Adam Vokes
Well, I do sometimes finish, rarely without issues, most outside my control it seems. winking smiley But when were on the road and the car hasn't randomly broken, we're setting decent times.eye rolling smiley


Quote
john vanlandingham
No.. Vokes, you don't understand because you are an little self-centered and self referential little know-nothing living in a cultural and spiritual void in the middle of nowhere... same reason none of you so strongly opiniated Calgarians knew nothing about oh say---the CAMS decision to dump restrictor requirements and make it an option.....

Quote
Adam Vokes
Wut? I most certainly did know (was one of the few) and directly made that argument to CARS at the time when they tried to bring in spec race fuel for $900/barrel.

Must have made a poor case since Keith "Finger-on-the-pulse-of-everything" kept asking for links and proof

Quote
john vanlandingham
You guys are so ignorant of what happens outside of the end of your own noses that you don't have ant idea of what constitutes a yard stick and how to use a yard stick.

Quote
Adam Vokes
Says the guy who thinks his experience racing back in the 80's slowly remotely applies to nowadays (or ever really did apply)?

Quote
john vanlandingham
I was referring to this:
http://www.ewrc-results.com/final.php?e=24884&t=International-Rally-of-Otago-2015

Last year so you can pull your usual "You don't know anything" bullshit...
Look way down at the DNFs at next to last in the list (and he did continue under their version of Supra-wally)..No 43..

That guy can beat virtually anybody in North America except maybe Higgins..

Quote
Adam Vokes
Sure he can. But you are comparing someone who is LITERALLY at the top of the sport in the world to Block. Block is ok and has unlimited funding, combined with how many events of experience under his belt??

Quote
john vanlandingham
And he was beating on stages by a 28 year old kid....stage after stage on a very open and fast event---where anybody who thinks---sorry, you're out----would think "Open and fast, sopunds like excellent high hp country"....1.6 liter on carbs, and buggy springs and 40mm, 190 travel Bilsteins.

Quote
Adam Vokes
That car Haydon runs was probably worth $100k plus.

Well I don't know anything, but I do know that that car is $100,000 because it is a Appendix K Historic class car...

But it is still a 1600cc 16v engine---plenty of 1600 or 2000cc 16v engines around---on carbs...not problem there---and simple 3 box RWD platform...Plenty of cars like that or slightly longer.

The main point being that a good driver in a good simple car with only one diff and inverted 40mm, limited travel Bilsteins, beat a whole lot of guys all quicker than the top 10 in Canada and all but maybe Higgins in USA..

Proof that a simple--but well done ---car is not an impediment to overall wins...and also proof that the sharp end of the stick is not very sharp.


Quote
Adam Vokes
Remember that time in the WRC F2 cars were beating up on the group A cars, or does that slip your brain John?



No, numbnuts it doesn't slip my brain. Unlike you I was around --and talking to engine builders THERE at the time ..They beat up on World Rally Car A8 (those F2 were a sub-set of Group A6---remember that? Oh you were 8 years old then you don't remember shit) on just 2 or at most 3 events... DRY wide FAST asphalt events. And nowhere else.
The question is do you know how, even for a couple or 3 WRC those F2 cars were built? You allude that you know things that I don't, so tell us oh magnificent one how and why the managed to go that fast.


Quote
Adam Vokes
Jesus. So you take a better driver, put him in an excellent car, and let him rip, yea, I expect he probably does pretty well. Block also has this thing with choking under pressure, he never seems to perform when the heat is really on.

Point is that a young and rather inexperienced guy could take a limited spec--good spec but locked into old parts---and beat a car with twice the HP, and maybe three times the torque, only 1/4 more weight. People can and do build cars faster and quicker than Paddon's Appendix K car, costing 1/4 what that cost...
If a driver cannot drive a car, well built and reasonably quick quick enough to beat Block Stage Times, then it is THEIR skills which are lacking, and buying a bunch of fancy parts will wasted money and effort.


Quote
john vanlandingham
until you and your "top 10" and all the poor suckers in Merikuh's top 10 can beat Block with a nice simple OLD car on carbs and a synchro box and basic shit-just as the young Ned Zedder did,

don't bother with all the complicated and expensive crutches.



Quote
john vanlandingham
.Improve yourself...

Quote
Adam Vokes
That's the goal, and that is what I intend to do. But there are definitely certain experiences that are better than others, and as a poor schmuck like myself, I need to make the events I attend count. There are also certain things that make not much difference to the goal at hand, and a well sorted car certainly allows you to focus on "improving yourself". My car is always brilliant to drive, I've just had some shit luck with mechanical failure. This season.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Paddons 1st OVERALL beating the entire normal NZRC field was NEWS in the rest of the world..

Quote
Adam Vokes
Yea, it was awesome, but he (again), took a $100k car,

Didn't we already explain this to you? I'm sure we did...




Quote
adam Vokes
and beat on a field of group N cars*** or their approximate equivalents. Its not as incredible as you make it out to be, considering:

1) He is literally world champion material
2) A well sorted, lightweight 2wd car can compete with heavily restricted 4wd cars
3) Block isn't that incredible of a driver, as already highlighted previously

And you have zero real comparison to Block's current talent to the rest of the field, as he has competed in a $400k car vs the rest of us running around in $20k or $30k cars. So yes, quite clearly I have a better grasp of the fields speed then you do because your comparisons are like apples to the friggin sky.


*** Sorry Adam "knows-everything-but-is-actually-a-total-dork-who-knows-shit" Vokes, once again despite you feeble efforts, you are once again ignorant--and lazy.

http://www.motorsport.org.nz/sites/default/files/motorsport/technical-regulations/2016%20NZRC%20Portfolio.pdf

Quote

(4) All forced induction vehicles (with an engine capacity 1800cc and over) in Category 1
and Category 5A shall be fitted with a restrictor in compliance with Appendix Two
Schedule A, with a maximum internal diameter of:
(a) Category 1: 34mm.
(b) Category 5A: 36mm.


Took 1.6 minutes to find and copy-and-paste that...shorter time than you typing your lousy opinions.

Not Group N.

And maybe Block isn't much of a driver, but he is quicker than the "top" of the Canajian field--except maybe Lestage sometimes..
.And the point was he was beaten by a good driver in OLD machinery..
Meaning all one needs is good well done 2wd car and all the fixation and addiction to turbo 4wd is misplaced and corrosive.


Which really is ironic since you try and scream and cry that whatever I know is outdated..

Well, numb-nuts, that outdated shit beat all those other good NZRC drivers in addition to Block...

And I know old stuff---and anybody with eyes and ears can hear and see top in both USA and Canada is thin, weak, and over reliant of buying "the latest"..

When they would do better in the long run to build and rally, simpler but correct 2wd cars.



John Vanlandingham
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CALL +1 206 431-9696
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