Quote
ReluctantGolf
--John, it seems like the Fiestas have proven to be pretty reliable and strong given the # of people who have competed and placed well in them as well as taken their hits and rolls and bumps and still keep on going.[/b]

Based on what?
There have been a few really fast guys in them. There have been a few really slow guys in them. Has the finishing record been any better than a Golf or similar (hmmm... maybe time for some Cox proportional hazard models?)
I know your answer, you don't actually know and you are making that claim based on anecdotal evidence likely biased by the fact that you only pay attention to the things you want to, such as the top three Fiestas.

It took a whole lot of wrong guesses before someone guessed correctly as to who is the most active rally driver since the year 2000 on Anders' facebook page. Because it wasn't a person chasing some meaningless Rally America wank fest. (Answer: Seamus.)

What we perceive is biased by what we want to see. Think Subaru is the best rally car in the world and you will believe it. Pay attention to US rallying only and it's a simple fact. Look at the whole world however and it's apparent that it is false.

Sure, the Fiesta is a decent rally car. In the realm of $60k FWD cars it's one of the top 3-4 options for someone who doesn't want to do much other than drive. Would Fuller's old Golf DESTROY a R2 Fiesta? Absolutely.

Flavor of the day...

---

Grant Hughes

Quote
NoCoast

Quote
ReluctantGolf
--John, it seems like the Fiestas have proven to be pretty reliable and strong given the # of people who have competed and placed well in them as well as taken their hits and rolls and bumps and still keep on going.[/b]

Based on what?
There have been a few really fast guys in them. There have been a few really slow guys in them. Has the finishing record been any better than a Golf or similar (hmmm... maybe time for some Cox proportional hazard models?)do YOU know the answer to this question you pose? I would love to know,.....thats what I am trying to drive at.
I know your answer, you don't actually know and you are making that claim based on anecdotal evidence likely biased by the fact that you only pay attention to the things you want to, such as the top three Fiestas. yes, you are 100% correct, I can only have an opinion on Fiestas that I am actually aware of via web/word of mouth/physically seen etc. So to some degree I can only know anything about things that I know and have heard/read about. Is there some other place where I should look (honest question)?? Are there a ton of Fiestas running somewhere that are getting spanked by mk2/3 golfs?? (again, honest question) where else should I look?

It took a whole lot of wrong guesses before someone guessed correctly as to who is the most active rally driver since the year 2000 on Anders' facebook page. Because it wasn't a person chasing some meaningless Rally America wank fest. (Answer: Seamus.)

What we perceive is biased by what we want to see. in my case I am trying hard to not be biased. I am trying to make observations based on what info I have access to and what I have actually seen.Think Subaru is the best rally car NO, i dont...but then again I am VERY new to this sport...I dont have enough expertise to make an educated quess on whether a subaru is the best rally carin the world and you will believe it. Pay attention to US rallying only and it's a simple fact. Look at the whole world however and it's apparent that it is false.

Sure, the Fiesta is a decent rally car. In the realm of $60k FWD cars it's one of the top 3-4 options for someone who doesn't want to do much other than drive. Would Fuller's old Golf DESTROY a R2 Fiesta? Absolutely. heck! where can i get info on "fullers old golf"? I would love to hear how his car was/is built and whether its even possible to still build a car like that. Is there a way to contact him? is his car for sale?? I dont know his first name so I dont know who you are referring to, again I am VERY new to this sport and to the community.. I am not necessairly comparing an R2 build to my potential buy/built car. I am more comparing an R1 vs. a like-for-like prepped Golf and the differences in durability and sustainability. I would love your thoughts on that. Thank you

Flavor of the day...

A quick google search of "Fuller, golf, rally" reveals his old website, and links to one of his old cars for sale as of August 31st, 2013.

His old Rallye Golf: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3133418

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4074829-1989-Factory-Group-A-Rallye-Golf-35000



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2013 02:16PM by MConte05.

Hey Kevin.
Yeah, I have no clue on the answers, just pointing out that it's hard to say if the Fiesta is really that good because it's mostly gone into the hands of really talented drivers. Compiling the kind of statistics it takes to really compare is beyond the ability of the real world timeframe of the employed.
Let's go back to the Golf. I like to say, rally a Golf if you like to work on a Golf. This is based on my observation of a few local cars that seem to always break and have problems, combined with a few accounts of DNFs or public knowledge of weaknesses, such as the recent thread about breaking stub axles. But if we look instead at a Golf from the perspective and results of Derek Bottles, Josh Wimpey, and Chris Duplessis, it is probably one of the best rally cars of the millennium. John used to like to point out that this was a US phenomenon and that they weren't dominant anywhere else. Of course, then just recently one has started running at the top of Group F in Finland which just goes to show that yes, it can be awesome or it can be totally shit.

I digress... Fuller's Golf was a F2 kit car as I recall. They sell used now for around 50K Euros... 200 hp, sequential 6 speeds, etc. Basically similar to the R2 with ~140 more horses...

---

Grant Hughes



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2013 02:20PM by NoCoast.

Quote
NoCoast
Hey Kevin.
Yeah, I have no clue on the answers, just pointing out that it's hard to say if the Fiesta is really that good because it's mostly gone into the hands of really talented drivers. Compiling the kind of statistics it takes to really compare is beyond the ability of the real world timeframe of the employed.
Let's go back to the Golf. I like to say, rally a Golf if you like to work on a Golf. This is based on my observation of a few local cars that seem to always break and have problems, combined with a few accounts of DNFs or public knowledge of weaknesses, such as the recent thread about breaking stub axles. But if we look instead at a Golf from the perspective and results of Derek Bottles, Josh Wimpey, and Chris Duplessis, it is probably one of the best rally cars of the millennium. John used to like to point out that this was a US phenomenon and that they weren't dominant anywhere else. Of course, then just recently one has started running at the top of Group F in Finland which just goes to show that yes, it can be awesome or it can be totally shit.

I digress... Fuller's Golf was a F2 kit car as I recall. They sell used now for around 50K Euros... 200 hp, sequential 6 speeds, etc. Basically similar to the R2 with ~140 more horses...

F2 kit cars, because they dropped the requirement from GpA for OEM intake and exhaust manifolds, were all over 235 hp. Ford and Nissan were around 240, VW don't recall, the Frenchies were virtually BTCC levels at about 275bhp and even thouh they did do gravel, they were aimed at asphalt and didn't beat the lowly Nissans and Fords on gravel. Indeed, on gravel "mere GpA Astras" could match them---and they were only at 215-218bhp...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I think the only real advantage to the Fiesta with the R2 kit is that someone's done all the hard work of sourcing the bits and making brackets to fit it all together.

The engine's a little better in some ways - it's smaller, but has VVT, which is something you won't find on an old VW motor. The M-sport page is indicating that they're getting 163PS@7,500 RPM and 182Nm@5700, which translates to 160hp and 134ft-lbs, and that's not hard to get out of a VW motor. Pretty easy in fact.

Rear suspension appears to be the same design, but they've reinforced the mounts, which anyone in their right mind does anyway. It looks like the arms are shorter so maybe it's less susceptible to bending. Front suspension - I don't know. I didn't get a chance to look under the front, but it appears they have more droop. The Golf is limited by the way the subframe/A-arms mount (axles bang if you don't limit them). That might be solveable by Langbein's subframe and custom A-arms, but it also might just be a dont-worry-about-it thing. My Golf's jumping ability is more limited by its tendency to come crashing in on the bumper than on the suspension's ability to handle it.

There're some other tidbits that're nice - front spindles look more robust, and it runs bigger brakes all round. Still, most of that can be solved by relatively inexpensive parts-swapping, all of which has been discussed here at one time or another.

I think the big advantage is the Sadev 5-speed sequential and the flat-shifting capability. That's about a $13K upgrade right there, but even that is available in a couple of different forms as a bolt-in solution for a Mk2.

Oh, the other advantage is that you can get stupid things like raingutters for the Fiesta, and they're unobtanium for the Golf.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

Quote
Aaron Luptak
If'n I was going to shell out the $$$$$$$ to build a current car, it'd probably be something that could be turned into a FIA homologated car so I could go run the "full" WRC Mexico and be scored against the big boys (or the JWRC kids at least).

Before I lost interest in FWD, I was looking at the Polos. There's a rumor that they're going to be bringing them here for 2015. There's already a known R2-build for them (see the russki almrally championship), so I figured talking with those guys might lead somewhere.

Of course, there's been a rumor of similar Polo availability going around for years and it hasn't happened yet.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

And while I'm on a roll with the late night posting, I'll post a third:

It really doesn't take that much money to build a really nice 2WD rallycar, especially if you're in the doctor/lawyer/computerprogrammer tax brackets. It's maybe $50K for all the bells and whistles, especially if you do much of the work yourself. That's not much more than that new BMW 5-series you've been eyeing. Or the equivalent Lexus.

But then what?

Now you've got a really nice rallycar in the garage. Do you have the ability to take it out, bend it, fix it up, bend it again? Truck it and a full crew all around the country? Buy 12-20 new tires each and every event? Above all, get out and practice practice PRACTICE?

Most of us either wouldn't know what to do with such a car, or don't have the resources to campaign it the way that's necessary to get a podium against other people who have the pocketbooks and time.


Sean: I've watched your videos, and IMO the main thing you should be considering is finding a better gearbox for that Neon. Your gear ratios are miserable.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

Lehmann on the A3 Golf Kitcar was 295.

---

"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

Quote
wvonkessler
Lehmann on the A3 Golf Kitcar was 295.

Germans use PS and all journalists lie and then people exaggerate.

I talk directly, PERSONALLY with the guy that did their engine R&D.
His phone number back then was +08 550 65 700
Ask for Gunnar. (may be retired now)

Didya know all GroupB Quattros had 650 bhp?
And BMW F1 engine used a stock M10 bottom end directly out of a 2002 and made 1500 hp?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
hoche
I think the only real advantage to the Fiesta with the R2 kit is that someone's done all the hard work of sourcing the bits and making brackets to fit it all together.

The engine's a little better in some ways - it's smaller, but has VVT, which is something you won't find on an old VW motor. The M-sport page is indicating that they're getting 163PS@7,500 RPM and 182Nm@5700, which translates to 160hp and 134ft-lbs, and that's not hard to get out of a VW motor. Pretty easy in fact.

Rear suspension appears to be the same design, but they've reinforced the mounts, which anyone in their right mind does anyway. It looks like the arms are shorter so maybe it's less susceptible to bending. Front suspension - I don't know. I didn't get a chance to look under the front, but it appears they have more droop. The Golf is limited by the way the subframe/A-arms mount (axles bang if you don't limit them). That might be solveable by Langbein's subframe and custom A-arms, but it also might just be a dont-worry-about-it thing. My Golf's jumping ability is more limited by its tendency to come crashing in on the bumper than on the suspension's ability to handle it.

There're some other tidbits that're nice - front spindles look more robust, and it runs bigger brakes all round. Still, most of that can be solved by relatively inexpensive parts-swapping, all of which has been discussed here at one time or another.

I think the big advantage is the Sadev 5-speed sequential and the flat-shifting capability. That's about a $13K upgrade right there, but even that is available in a couple of different forms as a bolt-in solution for a Mk2.

Oh, the other advantage is that you can get stupid things like raingutters for the Fiesta, and they're unobtanium for the Golf.

Thanks, now that somebody else is saying the same thing--that there's insignificant FUNCTIONAL difference---mainly its a FAD and orders of magnatude more expensive, maybe others will read..
One question:

Raingutters?

?que?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
And BMW F1 engine used a stock M10 bottom end directly out of a 2002 and made 1500 hp?

Yeah, and the engine blocks smelled of piss!!

Quote
john vanlandingham
One question:

Raingutters?

?que?

Stop the world, JVL in knowledge / comprehension deficit!!
Any VW dude knows about raingutters, man, where you been?

---

Disappointingly not yet a Jackass

Crikey your USA Fiesta is HUGE!! and it has a trunk.

Over here we'd call that a Mondeo, which is a couple of sizes up from a real Fiesta.

---

Disappointingly not yet a Jackass

Thanks for your response Grant. The budgets for those R2 and the Fuller Golf you referred to is a fair amount more than what I am working with as far as $$ although I am realistic about what it would cost to either buy a prepped car or have one built. My budget lives somwhere in that range.

It sounds like maybe I need to track down Derek, Josh and Chris and ask them exactly how they had their individual cars set up and take my cue from them. Hopefully there will be some combined wisdom I could carry from them in addition to the collective wisdom of you guys here in rallyanarchy.com....tons to read still, but making my way thru about 20 open rallyanarchy windows.

Eh, the car setup isn't going to mean shit on your first couple rallies anyways. Don't waste your time trying to chase down the "perfect" setup when you haven't turned a wheel on stage yet. Far too many people spending far too much time and money trying to get "started" with the PERFECT setup, and either never make it to the stage, or just baby the car to finish, thinking that is something to be immensely proud of.