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heymagic
Lets take a second and talk economics. John assumes everyone who comes here is too poor to have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. That simply isn't true. There is no way on the world a 1987 VW POS matches a 2010 or newer Fiesta for reliability. Better motor, better brakes, better engine management, better transmission and way better chance of getting some sponsorship. A 6000 mile car won't need an engine rebuild, transmission rebuild, new wiper motor and linkage, new wiring harness, new, new, new. The cost to build the rally portion will be the same for the most part. The cost of upgrading an old Golf to new Fiesta specs is substantial. Old VWS were pretty tired at 150k and they stink inside. getting stuck in the 1987 time machine isn't always the answer. The world has progressed since then, a lot. Cheap isn't always an economic winner.

They want Subarus though...

---

Grant Hughes

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heymagic
Lets take a second and talk economics. John assumes everyone who comes here is too poor to have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. That simply isn't true. There is no way on the world a 1987 VW POS matches a 2010 or newer Fiesta for reliability. Better motor, better brakes, better engine management, better transmission and way better chance of getting some sponsorship. A 6000 mile car won't need an engine rebuild, transmission rebuild, new wiper motor and linkage, new wiring harness, new, new, new. The cost to build the rally portion will be the same for the most part. The cost of upgrading an old Golf to new Fiesta specs is substantial. Old VWS were pretty tired at 150k and they stink inside. getting stuck in the 1987 time machine isn't always the answer. The world has progressed since then, a lot. Cheap isn't always an economic winner.

Nor Gene is expensive and new always the winner. Better box PFFFT! I shit on the 'better" trans--Gene its a street box.. You cannot be serious--

Brakes, You suggesting what?
Stock vs Stock,

The boys blowing the Fiesta pipe (that is a rude suggestion case you don't get it) are looking at the high price spread and you yapping about a fucking econo car made like all econo cars to get good MPG..

I thopugh we were discussing RALLY cars, fuck ME!
I din't know we were talking about econo grocery-getters...

In that ase you're right, a stock Fiesta todfay is way better than a POS old Golf.

Fawkin brutally brilliant observation. Man--- I wish i could pierce thru the fogg and see the critical things that sharply..

I mean how did I get off comparing the cost to make a RALLY CAR, a good solid car?

So fuckit, never mind

Great Price, ONLY 9000 bucks and you just stick a cage in for 4500 and you will win and even get one of those low hanging sponsorships.

Its what ALL the cool kids are doing..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Figure it either way John, a newish Fiesta is a better street car and when equally prepared a better rally car. You just cant recognize anything that didn't come from your ideas. Every rally car starts out stock. A stock Fiesta should be better than the majority of regional VWs. At all levels the Fiesta should be able to trump a VW .

9K for a 6,000 mile everything isn't enough more money than taking some old POS and bringing up to that level...which is nearly impossible.

You be the pied piper for yester years junk. 5 years from now when the BMWs, Fiesta and BRZ are easily and cheaply available you'll still be trying to survive on selling 2 or 3 Volvo flywheels a year.

As an organizer I'd much rather see later model cars in the field. I'm sure the local Ford dealer, who sponsors our efforts, would rather see later model cars. Did you see the crowds around the Nameless BRZ ? Nope you didn't because you didn't get off your ass and support your local event or the competitors that bought from you.

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heymagic
Figure it either way John, a newish Fiesta is a better street car and when equally prepared a better rally car. You just cant recognize anything that didn't come from your ideas.

Bullshit Gene, and fuck your repeating bullshit that I am sick of a few guys repeating..
And gene---it ain't my ideas...It's simple comparison of NUMBERS
Tell me right now since your so fucking smart and know more:

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Every rally car starts out stock. A stock Fiesta should be better than the majority of regional VWs. At all levels the Fiesta should be able to trump a VW .

Why would a Fiesta front brake disc be better than a Golf front brake disc..?
You know the sizes?
So Fiesta 280 x 23 with a 54mm sliding type caliper is sooooooo much better than the VW 280 x 22 with a 54mm sliding caliper?

WELL??!!! Come on Gene, it's your claim every part is better...


Well you cannot be expected to be taken serious when you don't KNOW THE FUCKING SIZES---and then they turn out to be--just like i said---virtually the same...

Maybe its the big modern rear drums that are the BIG IMPROVEMENT you claim is so significant and that you get really fuckin smug and insulting about:
Must be the big 200mm drum in the Fiesta, so much more modern than the lousy Golf 180mm drum.

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9K for a 6,000 mile everything isn't enough more money than taking some old POS and bringing up to that level...which is nearly impossible.

Gene, ever notice that yeah there are a few guys that spend a ton of dough for a few years--2-maybe 3 before they drop out?
Who are we adressing here?
Who the fuck do you think reads forums?
You think guys who have serious money to waste READ anything?
The get a nice hand-job by some shop while getting told a nice story, they don't come here to learn how to have fun for less and have fun for longer.
They don't have to.

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You be the pied piper for yester years junk.

Some of that JUNK sure is working better than a LOT of modern--and 3-4 times costlier shit...

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5 years from now when the BMWs, Fiesta and BRZ are easily and cheaply available you'll still be trying to survive on selling 2 or 3 Volvo flywheels a year.

Don't worry your old grey hairs about what I'll be doing in 5 years..

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As an organizer I'd much rather see later model cars in the field.

Later models. well good for you.. I'd rather see things driven hard, that sound and go good, but hey I conceded, I gave up, Just buy a Fiesta, bolt a cage in and because its later model you'll look prettier.

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I'm sure the local Ford dealer, who sponsors our efforts, would rather see later model cars.

because their job is selling cars, including econo grocery getters..

That isn't my job.

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Did you see the crowds around the Nameless BRZ ? Nope you didn't because you didn't get off your ass and support your local event or the competitors that bought from you.

Hey Gene: fuck you with that shit--you write shit and you'll be told fuck you.
I do not have to explain to you what my and my wives work schedules are and who has to do what to mind the kids...She is off Friday and Saturdays, that means I have to be HERE Sundays..It means i have Fridays and Saturdays as work days that i can get solid hours on things..
I have a family now, they come first.

Need I remind you Gene that you dropped completely out of the sport when you married and had a kid...

So no, I didn't go to nameless rally Gene, I went down and made fucking parts so guys can have something to use on their cars and do I can pay down this mortgage..

You're over the line in this shit talk Gene when you mention "what I've done" or I'd "didn't support the competitors who bought from me..."
I've done an awful lot for a lot of local guys, ALL of whom I have asked to come and lend a hand with some of MY projects,
EVERY single one has said "Yeah Yeah sure fer sure"
And every single one hasn't.

All too busy having fun.

What more am I supposed to do.

Fuck it.

Get a Fiesta, its wide ratio box, wider than a stock GTI box--which is wider than my old Ford junk box is so much better because, as it now stands, because you said so..
Fiestas stock hp is better because you said so since we ALL run stock motors

One day Gene you'll learn you can convince people better by saying why--and using numbers and dimensions that just insulting and mistaking an opinion based on dimensions and numbers for just somebodys dumb ideas.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I am not sure how similar these new 1.6 Fiestas are to the previous models but when I serviced / helped out with a few circuit racing the 2.0 Fiesta ST150 vehicles they had issues with the front wheel bearings.
IIRC it was a weird sort of design where the bearing appeared not to be located into the knuckle particularly well.
It transpired that the pukka Fiesta ST gravel rally cars also had considerable problems with front hubs and often changed bearings out after a couple of stages. There was some kind of modification (possibly Msport derived?) that tried to pin the bearing in the knuckle to stop it floating and pounding itself or the hub.

The race cars also used to piss power steering fluid out at sustained high rpm.
Plus in an accident the alloy engine blocks often got damaged because the engine mounts were not weak enough to be the sacrificial part, and therefore the energy from the impact just plucked the thread mounting bosses clean off the block rendering the block as scrap.

I guess the new cars are probably safer to be in if involved in an accident with their extensive inherent safety crash structures.

---

Disappointingly not yet a Jackass

You were more than willing to co-drive and took the time to totally bitch out max for not choosing you. So you don't attend rallies to know what the crowd likes or sponsors like or the direction the world is turning. maybe some guys do overspend and drop out, oh well. How is that better than spending years assembling one off pieces and never get on stage? Other than your income anyway?

No I don't know the brake sizes, nor do I care enough to copy and paste like you do. I do work on cars every day, newer stuff. It is much better built and lasts much longer than 30 year old offerings did. Will they need some work? Maybe, but you're hawking modified hubs, custom diff mounts, Toyota axle adapters, cross members, custom control arms. VWs need axle beam, shaft, hub work. Should have frame work. bell housings, transmissions, flywheels etc. lots of work and money spent on those old 'perfect' cars. Did you ever notice back in the day (as now) the more successful guys had cars that were 5-10 years old? Did ya? You know Qvale, Hartmann, Koji, Waddington, Beeson, White, Gordham, Lund and a few of us Datsun/Mazda guys. All newer stuff at the time, all successful and many had varying levels of sponsorship.

I see who reads the forum, and more telling is i see who doesn't even show up anymore. You really need to learn to accept there are people with bigger bank accounts than yours, bigger dreams and whatever else makes us individuals. Fiesta and Honda are kicking ass in much of the world right now. If you spent as much time working on solutions for those cars we'd all be better off. Messiah or mess...you choose the path.

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heymagic
You were more than willing to co-drive and took the time to totally bitch out max for not choosing you. So you don't attend rallies to know what the crowd likes or sponsors like or the direction the world is turning. maybe some guys do overspend and drop out, oh well. How is that better than spending years assembling one off pieces and never get on stage? Other than your income anyway?

No I don't know the brake sizes, nor do I care enough to copy and paste like you do. I do work on cars every day, newer stuff. It is much better built and lasts much longer than 30 year old offerings did. Will they need some work? Maybe, but you're hawking modified hubs, custom diff mounts, Toyota axle adapters, cross members, custom control arms. VWs need axle beam, shaft, hub work. Should have frame work. bell housings, transmissions, flywheels etc. lots of work and money spent on those old 'perfect' cars. Did you ever notice back in the day (as now) the more successful guys had cars that were 5-10 years old? Did ya? You know Qvale, Hartmann, Koji, Waddington, Beeson, White, Gordham, Lund and a few of us Datsun/Mazda guys. All newer stuff at the time, all successful and many had varying levels of sponsorship.

I see who reads the forum, and more telling is i see who doesn't even show up anymore. You really need to learn to accept there are people with bigger bank accounts than yours, bigger dreams and whatever else makes us individuals. Fiesta and Honda are kicking ass in much of the world right now. If you spent as much time working on solutions for those cars we'd all be better off. Messiah or mess...you choose the path.

Gene in all your ranting and bloviating you still didn't slow down and THINK.

Shut up and think. If I am saying that Fiesta is essentially the same as a old Golf in virtually all the details, length width, wheelbase, weight, brakes, ratios, details of construction how its made, etc etc....that means I have taken time to LOOK UP AND COMPARE ALL THOSE THINGS GENE.. Because I do look foward.

Damn it's frightening to think you can't slow down and think of that..
EVERYTHING is a fucking COMPARISON...
This versus that versus that..versus that..

Those "thises" have sizes and dimensions compared with those "that's" which have their sizes and dimensions.
It is THOSE things which makes THIS better than THAT, no you screaming at me that I'm dumb and stuck in old shit..

Isn't it fucking ironic that you keep screaming at me that I'm stuck in the past when I've looked up and crawled under this and other modern cars ans measured shit...

and you haven't.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

This is only too easily predicted!

JVL rather than getting yourself all wound up....Again!

You may wish to consider that there may be an opportunity for you to offer parts for current Fiestas......

Perhaps Hondas and other flavors too.

Those purchasing NEW to almost new cars are most likely to spend real money on enhancements.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

You mentioned hondas, and it got me thinking of Fits, namely B-Spec racing. I own a Sonic as a daily driver, and thought it'd be fun to do b-spec in it someday, especially seeing they have bspec in rally now. But I watched b-spec racing on tv (road track) and saw a car BARELY get tapped while turning in a low speed turn, i think he was on the curbing a little. Anyway, it flipped like nothing. It didn't look like the physics were there, but it didnt even hesitate.

So, to take thi furthur of course... Has anyone seen a bspec rally car in action? are they remotely stable in turns, on gravel? Or are they rolling all over the place>

None of the B-Spec rally cars currently running in RA are driven hard enough to really know. They all seem to finish at the bottom of the field, near dead last. But hey, they get a trophy and are "B-Spec Champions!"

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john vanlandingham
F2 kit cars, because they dropped the requirement from GpA for OEM intake and exhaust manifolds, were all over 235 hp. Ford and Nissan were around 240, VW don't recall, the Frenchies were virtually BTCC levels at about 275bhp and even thouh they did do gravel, they were aimed at asphalt and didn't beat the lowly Nissans and Fords on gravel. Indeed, on gravel "mere GpA Astras" could match them---and they were only at 215-218bhp...

The Peugeot 306 Maxi was up to 311hp@11000rpms in 98-99 when I worked there, and there wasn't any other 2wd car aside from maybe the Xsara Kitcar that could touch it on both asphalt or gravel. And that piece of shit Astras were only run on smooth gravel countries like Belgium or Finlands. You would never see them in Portugal or Greece, and the 306 won National championships overall in98/99 against Escort and Corolla WRCs with all types of surfaces.

As for the Fiesta R2's being all great... well, Chris Duplesis has been looking into Hondas now and saying that the Fiestas would be slaughtered by one!!!

I know of a couple good Hondas for sale.

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JohnLane
This is only too easily predicted!

JVL rather than getting yourself all wound up....Again!

You may wish to consider that there may be an opportunity for you to offer parts for current Fiestas......

Perhaps Hondas and other flavors too.

Those purchasing NEW to almost new cars are most likely to spend real money on enhancements.

Lane can you read? Can you possibly draw inferences from clearly stated things?
I said isn't it ironic that Gene is asserting how marvelous modern stuff is---and he and i have talked about just how good modern 9last 20 years0 motors are, but he didn't know any sizes or dimensions or ratios or details of contruction (rear beam being just a boring rear beam, just like a VW),
but I do.

That's because I HAVE been looking at what the car is, what are the likely areas of improvement and weighing FUTURE potential parts....

First one has to look at what something IS to begin with, then see what can be done IF there is enough of a market of serious customers..

Onesey-twosies is not a way to make money...reducing unit costs by making LARGER production runs--thus spreading out the R&D, drawing materials cost is...

Of course guiys who have been in the repaior business generally don't understand manufacturing since every job they do is a onesie job.
But those who have been maing things--PRODUCING---parts since a month outta high school---like me---know that bigger runs is key to happiness.

The cost for making 2 bells is ridiculous. The cost of making 30 isn't horrible. Making 60 and aside from the capital outlay for the matierial----which also goes down drastically, the machining costs plummet.

So if one is not a complete goon, you study, look at the market, plan ahead. See what sixe the brakes, the clutch, the bearings, the splines, CVs
EVERYTHING is. And read how things are going where they cars are driven like the Ozzie boy drives it...

That is why I say it is essentially virtually no different than an 88 Golf..

Naturally there would be no argument if anybody took the time to actually look at sizes, dimensions, construction details....

But its far more fun to rant at me...and talk shit.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham
Lane can you read? Can you possibly draw inferences from clearly stated things?

Hmmmmm... Remember John.... I'm the 'Mostly Monolinguistic Moron.' (Your words... Remember?) Any and all of such things will obviously just up and fly right over my head. Though I did manage to pluck this low hanging fruit.

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john vanlandingham
I said isn't it ironic that Gene is asserting how marvelous modern stuff is---and he and i have talked about just how good modern 9last 20 years0 motors are, but he didn't know any sizes or dimensions or ratios or details of contruction (rear beam being just a boring rear beam, just like a VW),
but I do.

That's because I HAVE been looking at what the car is, what are the likely areas of improvement and weighing FUTURE potential parts....

First one has to look at what something IS to begin with, then see what can be done IF there is enough of a market of serious customers..

Onesey-twosies is not a way to make money...reducing unit costs by making LARGER production runs--thus spreading out the R&D, drawing materials cost is...

Of course guiys who have been in the repaior business generally don't understand manufacturing since every job they do is a onesie job.
But those who have been maing things--PRODUCING---parts since a month outta high school---like me---know that bigger runs is key to happiness.

The cost for making 2 bells is ridiculous. The cost of making 30 isn't horrible. Making 60 and aside from the capital outlay for the material----which also goes down drastically, the machining costs plummet.

So if one is not a complete goon, you study, look at the market, plan ahead. See what size the brakes, the clutch, the bearings, the splines, CVs
EVERYTHING is. And read how things are going where they cars are driven like the Ozzie boy drives it...

That is why I say it is essentially virtually no different than an 88 Golf..

Naturally there would be no argument if anybody took the time to actually look at sizes, dimensions, construction details....

But its far more fun to rant at me...and talk shit.

Not talking shit John.... As hard as it is for you to believe... People would like to see you succeed. Build good product and it will work. Mellow out and it will do wonders.

Gently suggesting that where there are a LOT of new cars out there with brakes and suspension that could do with enhancement....

YOU could be the guy selling big brake kits, better clutches, ect for cars that are new to up to a few years old.... These being the cars that get more money spent on them as it is so often paid by Mommy & Daddy or financed....
That market can't help but be about oh.... 1,000 times the size of the rally and other loony market.
It will be less forgiving though....

Something that is WAYYYY bitchin' in modern cars is Direct injection and the engine management that goes along with it. This is something on my list for my six.

Otherwise modern cars are stiffer, weigh more and generally just as underbraked as ever in standard from.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

Oh and John ditch the idea of big production runs. Even manufacturers have had a come to Jesus about that... the market is very dynamic these days and big production runs just doesn't make sense because unless you STOCK the product (risky investment, dynamic market changes overnight), having to wait months for the orders to pile enough to do a run is just crazy, and pisses customers off. Especially for a job shop! Quick in and out should be the real key. Start getting ideas on making parts for the current flavor of the year cars and the business follows, market trends shift so should products.

If you need fancy Honda brakes/suspension bits and piccies let me know.

for immediate release!

Some dorks in a 30 year old Ford did semi-decent in a rally up in the wastelands of Canadia....