Not Trolling Keith Morison Elite Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 09/15/2015 Age: Ancient Posts: 340 |
There are some who might argue that rally should be won on the stages and not lost by timing penalties... as a co-driver I don't see it that way.
But I struggle to understand this: http://nasarallysport.com/results/2017-Central-UP-Rally-penalties.htm Only ONE team made it through the event without penalties, and of the rest only one team didn't amass MINUTES of penalties. http://nasarallysport.com/results/2017-Central-UP-Rally-penalties.htm Looks like most of the teams should have DNF'd by being max early. (unless that is a scoring glitch) First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19) Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5) WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4) Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11) Last Updated, May30, 2022 |
ElectroTech Steve Wheeler Ultra Moderator Location: Fork Lake, Alberta Join Date: 06/09/2015 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 336 Rally Car: 1992 Golf |
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john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Super Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
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Not Trolling Keith Morison Elite Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 09/15/2015 Age: Ancient Posts: 340 |
maybe a 'modified FIA' timing card, since it is the modified FIA timing system being used. With some reflection, I could ALMOST see many of the penalties coming from people adding transit to finish time rather than using the modified FIA system... but then there's someone who checked in 15 minutes early, which doesn't fit that scenario. First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19) Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5) WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4) Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11) Last Updated, May30, 2022 |
Not Trolling Keith Morison Elite Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 09/15/2015 Age: Ancient Posts: 340 |
Lack of familiarity and pretty much completely different presentation of information... (vertical rather than horizontal, and non orderly filling out of the boxes on the card...) For years co-drivers have been asking for standardized time cards... and right down to the event organisers there is reluctance to change 'what they are doing.' First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19) Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5) WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4) Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11) Last Updated, May30, 2022 |
Dante Allan Dantes Elite Moderator Location: Herman, MI Join Date: 01/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 176 Rally Car: 87 Mazda LSRX-7 |
The cause: The roads when were dry were .kml'd to be very fast. The bogey times were set low. The area received 4 days of straight rain, saturating the roads made of clay. Most transits were under a mile between stages. We had 15 minutes to transit. So even though most blew bogey, they could easily check in "on time." Also, the bogey times were in the route book, not the time card. And with short transits, most never looked in the route book. Time card attached. Oh. Did I mention it was wet?
Owner, Driver, Head Mechanic, and Janitor at Tower City Race Team, headquartered near L'Anse. Michigan. Driver / CoDriver in Rally America, NASARallySport, ARA, AMS, UPMDA, Champ Off Road https://www.facebook.com/TowerCityRaceTeam/ https://www.instagram.com/towercityraceteam/ |
hoche Michel Hoche-Mong Elite Moderator Location: Campbell, CA Join Date: 02/28/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,156 Rally Car: Golf, Golf, RX-3 |
Actually, only some codrivers have asked for standardized time cards. They tend to be either the dogmatic "This Is The Only Way Of Doing Things" types, or rookies/regional guys who've only ever seen one time card. The codrivers who travel around mostly just seem to think that time cards should be in one of any of about three or four general formats and there should be sample time cards in the supps as well as a declaration of the timing system. Self-righteous douche canoe |
Not Trolling Keith Morison Elite Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 09/15/2015 Age: Ancient Posts: 340 |
Ok, I suppose I should have qualified my statement with, 'from what I've seen.' My experience is quite different from yours as the co-drivers I've heard asking for commonality are the ones who are regularly travelling a lot and using multiple systems. I should also be clear that its much more of a 'wouldn't it be nice' than a 'this needs to be done.' That said, the request was made formally to the CARS board at one point in time, and it came with support from the 'pointy end.' Funny thing is that the timing rules are already in the sanctioning body regulations... why would you repeat them in the supps? I'd agree if an event was using a system that was 'non-standard' for the sanctioning body. First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19) Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5) WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4) Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11) Last Updated, May30, 2022 |
Not Trolling Keith Morison Elite Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 09/15/2015 Age: Ancient Posts: 340 |
Can you send a pic of the reverse side with the timing rules? NASA's GCRs say the 'modified FIA' system is used, which means the time card is giving incomplete directions on the front. By the times on the card, you'd have picked up 3 minutes of earliness in the two stages you finished. (The card IS giving you the 'long time' for the stage as well as the transit time, albeit not very clearly, but it neglects to tell you that if you exceed the long time, that you drop the seconds and use your finish time. Unless there was a change by the organizers to a different system) Here is the time card we used at RMR, and would look familar to anyone running BigWhite as well. The design was actually done with some collaboration with Nath Richard and RallyAmerica in an effort to standardize. And, Canadian National, so two languages. Obvously very familair to anyone local (we use the same design in our regionals, but I could see where it would be a bit confusing to someone who hasn't seen or used them before. Then again, 'follow the arrows' usually helps people get through it. First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19) Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5) WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4) Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11) Last Updated, May30, 2022 Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2017 02:43PM by Not Trolling. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Super Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Error (403) It seems you don't belong here! You should probably sign in. Check out our Help Center and forums for help, or head back to home. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Not Trolling Keith Morison Elite Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 09/15/2015 Age: Ancient Posts: 340 |
Izzat better? First Rally attended (2000), First Rally competed in (2001) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Driver (8), Co-Driver (47), Drivers (19) Clerk (29), Steward (1), Official (17), Volunteer (5) WRC Spectator (1), WRC Photographer (6), WRC Observer (4) Rallies attended (120) Countries attended rallies in (11) Last Updated, May30, 2022 |
dunhamr1 Ryan Dunham Elite Moderator Location: Hurst, TX Join Date: 09/17/2015 Age: Settling Down Posts: 158 Rally Car: 1989 Merkur XR4Ti |
Example cards are pretty readily available. Any Co-driver worth their salt should be reading the rules that describe the timing, or there's books out there with comparisons of different timecards... Or at least ask questions before the event. Having transit times and bogey times on the timecard is convenient but would only serve to supersede what was written in the route book. Granted this is a new event and seemed to have a few new teams so there was a lot of learning going on, for all parties involved. |
hoche Michel Hoche-Mong Elite Moderator Location: Campbell, CA Join Date: 02/28/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,156 Rally Car: Golf, Golf, RX-3 |
CARS, ARA, and R-A all describe a single timing method in their rules. CARS and ARA both describe Modified FIA (in a fairly confusing manner - see CARS 15.5.4. ARA's wording is virtually identical, unsurprisingly enough), and both say that "no other timing system is permitted". R-A describes a different method (fixed transits times starting from stage-completion time), but at least they acknowledge that some variation may occur and that event regulations must detail event procedures. NRS is the only body that describes multiple different timing systems - three of them. So, yeah, if you're running under one of the first three sanctioning bodies and you're sticking to their standard timing system, there's no need to put it in the supps. If you're not using the official one, you'd have to put it in the supps anyway as an exception - and you'd have to describe in detail how the method you're planning on using works. And if you're an NRS event, you should declare it every time, but you can just refer to the relevant section of the regs for a detailed description. Self-righteous douche canoe |
hoche Michel Hoche-Mong Elite Moderator Location: Campbell, CA Join Date: 02/28/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,156 Rally Car: Golf, Golf, RX-3 |
Curiously, the initial supps listed back in March don't say what the timing system would be, and although it has an appendix as a placeholder for sample time cards, the page is blank.
The latest supps still don't say what the timing system is, and the time card appendix got taken out. If they were using Modified FIA, that time card was entirely the wrong thing to use - or at least it seriously needed to have the instructions rewritten. I certainly would have been confused and would have assumed that the timecard instructions superceded anything else, especially since there was nothing in the supps. Growing pains. I hope no one but Keith is seriously worked up about this and I assume it'll get corrected in future runnings. Self-righteous douche canoe |