I wanna be a top rally driver ASAP, what car should I buy?

OK, so i got beat up again by the RA fan-boys over at SS.com. I think I can handle it. But, I still don't get it, didn't RA rules used to say novices needed to to start in 2wd cars, but I found out now AWD is ok, but no turbos, unless your someone's friend, then JB Niday will work something out.

I am thinking about different drivers and how they have progressed. Who started out in what and what is their RA speed factor?

Travis Pastrana started out in 2004 in a PGT WRX (AWD, turbo) Awesome speed factor, duh. Two championships.

Ken Block, I don't know what he started in but I have only seen him in top machinery. #2 speed factor to Travis. Always knocking on the door.

Ken Bartram, got sold a Beetle, now drives an STi, but speed factor is so-so. Nothing personal, it's still 30 points better than me.

Ramana Lageman, started in a Golf, but quickly got a open class AWD turbo Galant, then top Subaru machines and became a works driver. Don't know his current speed factor, but I know he has overall wins.

Matt Iorio, i think for the most part,learned his craft in AWD turbo Subarus.

Pat Richard, started in a AWD normally aspirated Subaru RS, Advanced quickly. Needed a turbo. Won several national championships.

Crazy Leo, learning very quickly in a top AWD turbo car. Was tied for the lead of his last event until his motor let go.

I guess we can all find evidence to prove whatever we want and there's mine. My devil's advocate hypothesis is that maybe putting a driver in top machinery ASAP can shorten the learning curve, all other things being equal, which they never are ;-)

I say if the next young potential phenom is properly funded, start him right off in some fire breathing AWD monster and see if he progresses quickly. Face it,the days of winning National level events in G2 Golfs is over!

What do you think?

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Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net

RA evolved their rules to allow low power awd cars for novices.

I think Ken first event (cherokee trails 2005) was a open class subaru.

I think Iorio started in a battered golf.

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Matt Smith

Racing in glorious black and red

My daily life is a Saab story (sold!)

tedm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK, so i got beat up again by the RA fan-boys over
> at SS.com.

Am I in the RA fan-boy club? Oh, JB is so dreamy ...

> But, I still
> don't get it, didn't RA rules used to say novices
> needed to to start in 2wd cars, but I found out
> now AWD is ok, but no turbos, unless your
> someone's friend, then JB Niday will work
> something out.

Since RA took over, the rule (RA PRR 2.1.C.2) has been the case that you could plead your case and get an exception to the "novices must start in G2 or P". It was originally intended as a short term thing to mitigate how quickly the rule had gone into effect (new drivers with new builds in progress would finish and then be unable to run their car), but has remained in effect.

I am a little surprised at, for example, how quickly Dave Mirra was allowed to move up to Ken Block's old car, but this is allowed under the RA rules.

> I guess we can all find evidence to prove whatever
> we want and there's mine. My devil's advocate
> hypothesis is that maybe putting a driver in top
> machinery ASAP can shorten the learning curve, all
> other things being equal, which they never are
> ;-)
>
> I say if the next young potential phenom is
> properly funded, start him right off in some fire
> breathing AWD monster and see if he progresses
> quickly. Face it,the days of winning National
> level events in G2 Golfs is over!
>
> What do you think?

It is true that a G2 Golf National overall win is unlikely. However, I think 2WD should be treated as its own discipline and the 2WD championship promoted as an ends unto itself (as opposed to a stepping stone to AWD).

In the end, I think that every driver is different. Some drivers need to come up slowly and some need to be dropped in the deep end.

alan

Ignoring your digs at Rally America (by the way such comments about some members of rally anarchy would raise screams of slander) the direct answer to your question is to start with the cars the Team O'Neal prepares. 2wd Volkswagons for the most part. Practice with Tim as your instructor to learn preservation of momentum and car control. Do many miles and many hours this way and demonstrate car control. If you also have demonstrated the ability to control the red mist by being successful in some other form of racing, say motorcycles, then you may not be limited to the low power cars. Oh and by the way, if you want to be a top rally or race diver, you will not buy any car at all. You will drive other people's cars.

---

RichardM

Ted what you bring up is part and parcel of the thing which I've said ever since the arrival of the 323s and particularly the Gaylants.
Nearly anybody with completely average man on the street skills CAN and as we've see for about 20 years HAS----if they have enough budget for repairs and tires----in very short order been able to make top 5 results with very nearly (in hours) no previous experience.

So YES if the goal is X speed, say 90% of Travis, or previously Joy or Merrill or Millen or at the local level whoever, then obviously buying and running a "Top" level car will get nearly anybody pretty good results more or less straight out of the box.

Nearly anybody I said, and that means I'm making huge presuppositions assuming the person is partially alert, has some twitch reflex, some vision, some moderate comprehension of what he's seeing and is at least a little competitive.

This can be said for guys who build normal aspirated cars.
Those require far more COMMITMENT and aggression to consistently leave the foot down, keep the motor on the boil, do the gearchanges RIGHT, cause if you don't, then the cars just don't go.

And therein is the problem.

If the boys start out in the very competent turbo awd cars which we know are pretty easy to drive x fast, and get locally "top" results so relatively easily, then they don't develop the aggressive driving and commitment needed to be fast on any BROADER measure.
Why should they try harder?r stuff LOOKS as fast as anything we see from anybody here.

But tell me who you think is driving HARDER to make the apparent same-ish speed?

If at least from my experience, I know when I'm trying harder, my senses are a LOT more alert, and I learn a LOT more than when I'm, relatively speaking, cruising.

So to answer your question, one has to know what you mean by TOP (where?).

To be top in the (since we have now knowledge of rally all over the world for anybody who wants to take the time to look---unlike 20 years ago when only one or two people knew what rally was like elsewhere---me and Topi Hynanen) USA?
Get a big budget Vermont Sportscar built and run Subaru and if you pay Lance enough, just like Ramana did, then poof! they'll announce youre a "factory" driver.

Want to learn the fundementals to build on?

Build a kick ass GpF car, go do events with 60+ in class, that will keep you AWAKE.

You guys say I'm "tearing down" US rally when i say that in some places there are SCORES, hundreds of drivers in "lesser" cars faster than the fastest here but all competition is about RELATIVE speeds.

If we were speaking about say TARGET SHOOTING and the "Best" guys in the event here were getting say 10% in the inner rings, that might "win" for the day but it would not by broader standers easily checkable be considered very good when we see other self funded amateurs getting say 85% shots in the inner rings, would it?
And pointing that out would not be "tearing down" somebodys accomplishments merely pointing out that there is a LONG WAY TO GO.

Again, you have to define what you mean.






Look at the link Brian posted today from a Finnish GpF guy. The inca

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Ok, I'm a tad confused...Is Ted posting as Ted or is Heath posting as Ted, or is Ted posting as Heath ? Who's on first ??...

Gee, Little John, are you saying that if I had a Subaru instead of a Mustang, I would be much faster? If so, thanks for the compliment. The truth is that it is the driver to a large part, rather than the car, that makes speed. Or maybe John Lane is a figment of our imagination?

---

RichardM

John Lane is all car!!!

He can't work a camera! He certainly can't drive. Clearly it's the car.

---

Michael LeCompte

Richard Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gee, Little John,


No, I said nearly anybody.
Not you.
You as we have come to see so clearly as flat useless as a human being.


The primary reason is because you lie so constantly and consistently.

Liars are usually useless.
And you prove the point.


are you saying that if I had a
> Subaru instead of a Mustang, I would be much
> faster?

Faster?

in order to be faster, you would have to be fast in the first place.
You have never as far as records show going back nearly 30 yeras been fast, indeed you seem to have always been finishing near the absolute bottom 1 or 2 places.


If so, thanks for the compliment.


I didn't compliment you, don't do your disgusting TROLL bullshit here like there is a dialog with anybody here.

>The truth is that it is the driver to a large part,
> rather than the car, that makes speed.


Bullshit by that stupid logic then why would the rich guys over the years, the Joys, the Merrills, the Lagemans, the Iorios and on and on, buy the most powerful, most advanced cars they can possibly afford?
If THEY were 'just as fast" then they could make the same results in whatever car, and somehow, I just don't see that happening.





Or maybe
> John Lane is a figment of our imagination?
John's car is a pretty sophisticated thing and has enormous amounts of bhp and torque, and NOW THAT HE's MATURED, and doesn't make huge blunders, he's done some excellent results.
Other than that, i fail to see your point, but then again I don't devote too much effort at attempting to understand your twisted, supposedly clever drivel.

And quit lying about me over on SS.com you POS.
I saw that response to Bobdobalina "one of the many who he'd ban".

I'd ban you for simple violation of our easy to live by rule: No Lying that is meant to be malicious.

Your intent is clear.
You are a troll and your posts contribute zero.

You are the ONLY person I'd ban here.
Because you are the only person who continually lies, and we don't need liars here.
No fuck off, go pound your pudding.


>
> RichardM

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Hate to jump into a fight between John and Richard, but ...

john vanlandingham Wrote:
> Bullshit by that stupid logic then why would the
> rich guys over the years, the Joys, the Merrills,
> the Lagemans, the Iorios and on and on, buy the
> most powerful, most advanced cars they can
> possibly afford?

Leave Matt Iorio out of this list. He IS fast. He is also lucky enough to have the resources to compete at that end of the field.

> > John Lane is a figment of our imagination?
> John's car is a pretty sophisticated thing and has
> enormous amounts of bhp and torque, and NOW THAT
> HE's MATURED, and doesn't make huge blunders, he's
> done some excellent results.

I am not knocking Mr. Lane. He is an excellent driver and is certainly doing better now that he has matured and realized that it is better to finish at the finish rather than in a ditch. However, both of his recent triumphs benefited from circumstance (At Doo Wops, it was Hintz losing the header on the first stage and Van Bogart coming too close to seeing God and backing off. At Olympus, it was the "as fast as you dare" roads and having the bhp, torque and gearing to go fast.).

But, getting back to the original question ...

To get to the top ASAP, you need a STI/Evo and luck that you don't kill yourself before you learn to drive. However, hopefully you will be sane and forget the ASAP part and work your way through the schools and lower power cars first.

alan

tipo158 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Hate to jump into a fight between John and
> Richard, but ...

There's no fight between Miller and I.
A fight requires DIALOG and honorable intentions, and we can see there is neither of those present.
he's trolling, I'm telling him to shut is stupid mouth.
>
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
> > Bullshit by that stupid logic then why would
> the
> > rich guys over the years, the Joys, the
> Merrills,
> > the Lagemans, the Iorios and on and on, buy
> the
> > most powerful, most advanced cars they can
> > possibly afford?
>
> Leave Matt Iorio out of this list. He IS fast.

Whatever, he's just an example of guys jumping in with MASSIVE investments in machinery and immediately making "top" results.


> He is also lucky enough to have the resources to
> compete at that end of the field.

WAS lucky enough till somebody pulled the strings tight.
And sorry Allen I really think the "All the Trust Fund will bear or I quit entirely" is also part of the problem.

How long do you think he could have spread his spending on a more financially modest approach? 10 years? Wanna bet he's be a better driver after 10 years steady racing even if it were in something as boring as a good Volvo 240?
>
> > > John Lane is a figment of our
> imagination?
> > John's car is a pretty sophisticated thing
> and has
> > enormous amounts of bhp and torque, and NOW
> THAT
> > HE's MATURED, and doesn't make huge blunders,
> he's
> > done some excellent results.
>
> I am not knocking Mr. Lane. He is an excellent
> driver and is certainly doing better now that he
> has matured and realized that it is better to
> finish at the finish rather than in a ditch.
> However, both of his recent triumphs benefited
> from circumstance (At Doo Wops, it was Hintz
> losing the header of his very new-ish Turbo 4wd Subaru on the first stage and Van
> Bogart in his new-ish very expensive " I rent this for $30,000 per event" turbo 4wd EVO coming too close to seeing God and backing
> off.

And you left off our good buddy TomB, sidelined with "1 pump in the car, and 2 in the truck" instead of 2 in the pink and one in the wait--sorry 2 in the car and 1 in the truck---a weee oversight.

Still though, who do you suppose drove better?


At Olympus, it was the "as fast as you dare"
> roads and having the bhp, torque and gearing to go
> fast.).
>
> But, getting back to the original question ...
>
> To get to the top ASAP, you need a STI/Evo and
> luck that you don't kill yourself before you learn
> to drive. However, hopefully you will be sane and
> forget the ASAP part and work your way through the
> schools and lower power cars first.
>
> alan
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Basically, I posted over here to get away from Miller and the rest of the RA fanboys, but whatever, this is a public forum. This is Ted posting as Ted. I don't know Heath and I have slandered no one!.

I thought the original intent of RA limiting noobies to P and G2 was based on the concept that 2WD cars are easier to control. Maybe they were concerned with power levels, too.

The point I am trying to make is that very few in recent history have become a RA National top 5 drivers driving G2 Golfs for any real length of time.

---

Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net

You're are right john, there is no arguing with you.

---

RichardM

Driver Name Speed Factor
Pastrana, Travis 98.75
Foust, Tanner 97.30
Block, Ken 97.16
Pinker, Andrew 95.47
Lagemann, Ramana 90.73
L'Estage, Antoine 89.99
Comrie-Picard, Andrew 87.62
Richard, Patrick 85.30
Choiniere II , Paul 85.00

Per RA site, this day.

Paul did start out in Front drive Audi I think. ACP had front drive LADAS. But no one took much notice of either until they got AWD and POWER! Back in the day, there weren't repoed WRXs on every lot.

---

Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net

Hey Miller, care to add anything relevant?

---

Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net