AW11 MR 2: humor me

Lately I have been kicking around the idea of an MR2 preped from G2. To me, it adds up to a pretty competitive car, but there is only one that I know of that has been rallied in the PNW, and they don’t seem all that common.

55% rear weight bias can’t hurt in a RWD car.
Mid engine, well all those group B cars were mid engine, so it can’t be that bad.
91 inch wheel base, kind of short, shorter than an AE86.
2300 lbs factory weight, probably would be about the same after it is gutted and caged.
Inexpensive way to fix the open diff (convert it to a Kentucky Locker).
No power steering. Could be good, could be bad….
Way easier to find AW11’s with a straight body and crappy motor on C-list than AE86’s or FX16’s.
No trailing links in the back. Good? Bad? Maybe just different.

What I am most intrigued by is the motor options, it seems like this could get fun.

You can swap a 2ZZ-GE in an AW11 with a little bit of trouble and have yourself a super reliable G2 motor that makes 180 crank hp. You also get that nice C60 six speed gearbox and a pretty flat torque curve for a 1.8 liter. The min weight would be 2138, and I kind of doubt you could get the car that light. The Lotus guys also make LSD’s for this gear box and they are surprisingly inexpensive.

The other option is going balls to the wall with a 4AGE. Start off with a nice 140 hp 1.6 liter black top, and when the mood strikes, throw a Formula Atlantic prepped 4AGE in there putting out 240 hp out on an NA 1.6 liter. Your min weight with that motor would be 2028 lbs. Rally isn’t a horsepower game by any means, but a 2000 lb mid engine rear drive car making 240 hp sounds like a bit of fun. Obviously this motor would need a lot of upkeep and race gas which would kind of get old.

So, any thoughts on rallying an AW11?

Do a Volvo 240.
You CAN be actually competitive in a 240.
You DON'T HAVE TO go crazy to go fast, weight's just a bit more and 50% larger engine (2300 vs 1600, and of course the smart option TURBO, easy torquey power) and most important: EASY, CLEAR UPGRADE PARTS COSTING A HUNDRED HERE, 400 THERE, NOT THOUSANDS.

Think seriously: an Atlantic motor wuld cost how much? 15,000? 20,000?
With the narrow powerband of the Atlantic what do you thing a close ratio gearbox would cost to keep it in the powerband?

Seriously, are you just benchracing?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I would think suspension travel and interior room both would be limited in a mr2.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Think seriously: an Atlantic motor wuld cost how
> much? 15,000? 20,000?
> With the narrow powerband of the Atlantic what do
> you thing a close ratio gearbox would cost to keep
> it in the powerband?
>

Ha, I talked to Hasselgren a few weeks ago. I had a technical question about the cost/benefit ratio of more displacement on a restrictor engine. In passing the VP there told me that older Atlantic engine builds start at $23,000+tax and go up from there. Although he could swing me a deal if I wanted more than one or bought it with a yearly service contract for "freshening" it between races.

Honestly, I think the 2ZZ-GE swap would be the better option in reality. I wasn’t all that serous about the FA motor; it was just interesting to add up the theoretical potential.

Adam’s Corolla is fast enough if 76 hp, and the real trick to doing well in rally is not getting stuck in a ditch.

Yeah, John, I know you jus love those Volvos, but those cars just don’t seem competitive in G5. ok, kidding, kidding. But really I just can drive a car that ryhmes with the female anatomy.

Ok, but really, as cool as Volvos are, its not like I have ruled them out and this is a thread about MR2’s.

Concerning interior room, I am a pretty small person (like Sparco Rev small), so I don’t really consider that to be a big deal.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2008 01:47PM by DirkaDirkaJack.

Do a search on SS for MR2 and ballast...seriously. I think it was last year but there was some guy asking if it was legal to have loose sand bags in the front of his car. Something about chronic understeer at every corner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2008 02:09PM by Tim Taylor.

Bench racing is ok on the internet but be up front about it. We have all seen people who endlessly build their cars. Analysis paralysis can get to be a problem with this type of person. If you actually want to participate in a rally, then the best option is to buy a used car and DRIVE IT. If you can't afford to buy a used rally car you are kidding yourself that you will ever be able to build one, let alone compete. Rant over.

I like MR2s but in the end there are much better platforms. Volvo and VW come to mind.

Just a quick look around yielded: 240 turbo ready to race 5K, Jetta ready to race 3K,
Talon ready to race 5.9K, Impreza ready to race 7.9K. There is no way that you can get a car ready for the cost of the Jetta.

Here is another thought, jump in your daily driver and come up for the Monster's Revenge TSD rally Nov. 8th. $45 will buy you 7.5 hours of rally fun. I will be the guy in the white GTI.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

That Jetta likely needs a recage.

Jeremy Brown is running an MR2 here in Colorado, won the Colorado Rally Cup, G2, Top NA CHCA 2WD rally car, and G2 at Rally Colorado.

That doesn't mean it's a good place to start. His was a $2005 or 6 GRM challenge car that he built and decided to play on dirt with. He uses a $200 Toyota V6 engine and runs Megasquirt and the car is fast, but don't remember much else.

I'd never consider building a VW.

Volvo or Merkur should be the default 2WD cars in the US. Easy and cheap, especially if you keep it simple (unlike some of us like to do). John Cirisan picked up a XR shell I found him for like $200, is doing the cage himself mostly, and dropping in a 5.0 V8 and T5 that you can get at a junkyard for $250-300 and the mounts to go into the shell are on off the shelf item.

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Grant Hughes

Tim - regarding the understeer issue; I am currently preping an AW11 for the 24 Hours of Lemons race coming up at the end of the year at Thunderhill. That is actually where I got this whole MR2 idea in the first place. Anyway, we have been researching ideas for that car as non of us on the team are “MR2 guys” and found that most AW11’s do in fact suffer from understeer. These cars were supplied from the factory without a rear ARB but with the mounting holes. A gen II or aftermarket ARB should help in that regard. Not to doubt what you have said though, it might very well be true, even with an ARB.

Robert – Well that is what I kind of intended this thread to be, kicking the idea around on the internetz…

anyway, I don’t want to get to off topic but I have been looking for a used G2 car for a long time now and so far the market has seemed quite dry. That 240 you mention is a G5, and without looking up the adds, I believe the Talon and Impreza are open class. Honestly, I would go pick up that 323 in Arlington this weekend if only it were not an open class car. I have checked out a few cars in person fore sale here in the NW and it seems like they usually need a few more grand put into them. So a car advertised for 6k might easily be 10 or more by the time you hit your first stage. In that case, the economics of a 15k prep seem to make more sense to me. I am temped by that Jetta in Co though, I might have to look into that, it would just be a pain to fly out there and not end up buying it.

I agree, with the philosophy of a used car however. If I roll a car on the first stage I paid 4k for I will be like “aw shucks”. However, if that were a brand new 12k car I just had prepped, I think I would be a bit more bummed out….

Big difference between WRC mid-engine purpose built race cars and an econo box Toyota commuter car. MR2s have no room inside for helmets and gear, and little room for proper cages and competitors. The smaller a car inside the more you risk injury when the bad nasty happens. No real suspension options either. Get on the gas and no steering, off the gas and too much steering. Noisy, hot engine compartment, no developement as a rally car. Yes you can rally one, yes it's been done but it isn't any cheaper than building a competitive, easy to support car. So unless you got your first knobber in one and just gotta have another one ...why ??? MR2, Fiero and X-19 could all be made to work ok for tarmac stuff, but even when they were current stuff they weren't rally stuff. Success in rally is hard enough without getting a weird car to start with.

There are still many Corolla 4doors around, RX-7s, Datsun 210s and 510s, 3 series BMWs. I see Starions from time to time, you can convert a Sube or Talon to RWD if needed, even the occasional Opel ( think Ecotek). Lot's of RWD options with a little work, bearing in mind that RWD has been largely forgotten by most manufactures years ago.

Why the fear of Group 5?

Pretty sure the VW needs a recage. Check out the front legs. If I recall, they run in front of the dash, which is common in some places, but you'll never catch me in a car with a cage like that personally.

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Grant Hughes

Can’t run G5 with zero coefficient points. (Or open for that matter). At least without a lot of letter writing, begging and hoping.

Yeah if that Jetta needs a recage, that makes it expensive enough that it just isn’t worth it for that car.

Gene – really I am just trying to think outside of the box and say why not an AW11? Its not like I am rushing out to build one, the idea just came to me during the Lemons project.

You are correct; Corolla GTS sedan shells are common enough (non liftback or FX16). and are plenty competitive. Why bother with the MR2? Well, the question I am proposing is why not? If the understeer cannot be resolved that would be a good reason, we will see how out Lemons car does in that department.

I agree 100% on why make life harder with a weird car. On the other hand, though I would say what AE86 rally parts are so common that make it a better option than an AW11? The struts are the same or similar as the AW11, and beyond that anything rally specific is an intercom, tires, or something else that isn’t car-specific.

You do have a point about the cramped interior, which is definitely a strike against the car. Even the FB RX7 interior seems incredibly small when rally prepared and the MR2 interior is even smaller.

Hey Grant, do you know anything about that 2nd gen MR2 that runs in CO? He was fast at CR and didn't seem to have any problems other than mashing up his air dam.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

So I'm actually an MR2 guy...I really like Toyota and MR2s. My commuter car is a '91 MKII that I have 300K miles on right now. My arguments against the AW11 chassis would be 1) wheelbase is way short of 100" 2) there is zero off the shelf support for suspension 2.5) it's to low/not enough travel.

If you get a chance you need to drive something short and twitchy like a GTX (longer wheelbase than an AW11) back to back with a Volvo 240. The difference is night and day. Anything over 60 or 70mph in a GTX is an exercise in concentration. The sage comment of our test weekend came from Al who after the first 5 corners in my car commented, "Is there a friggin' caster wheel under the center of this thing?".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2008 05:33PM by Tim Taylor.

Tim Taylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So I'm actually an MR2 guy...I really like Toyota
> and MR2s. My commuter car is a '91 MKII that I
> have 300K miles on right now. My arguments against
> the AW11 chassis would be 1) wheelbase is way
> short of 100" 2) there is zero off the shelf
> support for suspension 2.5) it's to low/not enough
> travel.
>
> If you get a chance you need to drive something
> short and twitchy like a GTX (longer wheelbase
> than an AW11) back to back with a Volvo 240. The
> difference is night and day. Anything over 60 or
> 70mph in a GTX is an exercise in concentration.
> The sage comment of our test weekend came from Al
> who after the first 5 corners in my car commented,
> "Is there a friggin' caster wheel under the center
> of this thing?".
>
>

It really is true what you say.
ANYBODY who has EVER driven a car between 99 and 104" wheelbase knows this particularly the AT SPEED part.

Anybody who has never tried to keep a short cramped twitchy POS sub 94" wheelbase car even pointed in the right direction must less be FUIN to drive fast will always find all sorts of examples of someboy else "doing pretty allright" with some obscure junk.

Back to back 'tween my old real 510 and my Saab, obvious huge difference, only after 95 does I starts a yakking.

Back to back with Dave Clark in his Manta A chassi (95" wb) to his Ascona B chassi (99.1" and he was totally gob smacked, and I was vindicated (since even 22 years ago I was yapping about longer cars---within reason---were the thing for us low lever Prole-le-ralliat types, ESPECIALLY since we don't have the ability to dial in a ton of castor to make the car return to center!).

Answer this, make a list of cars that did good in higher level competition (Northern Europe) that were sub 94" wheelbase.

Make a list of them from 97.4" to 104"

Now which can you buy?


And yes the short cars do float around somewhere just behind the seat, sorta like a mouse for the 'pooter.


>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Oct 30, 2008 by Tim
> Taylor.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.