So what's a good FWD?

john vanlandingham Wrote:
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> I wonder if chere paulinho is not giving us the
> tooth counts of the ring and pinion the way many
> European contries usually quote things.
>
> I say "5.45" but that's cause we'ze a spikkin'
> Norte Americanese, but were I a'spikkin Swedish
> I'd a beeze a saying "7:38" or I used to have
> "6:35" which we say 5.83:1 here.
>
> Hey Paulinho, check and report.
> I think the tooth count for "6:33" is 6 on pinion
> and 33 on ring gear and that makes 5.5:1 and that
> makes more sense looking at the ratios in the box.
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca

Compadre slappa besätta, I know that in yorope we also use the count of the teeth on the CWP and that in Ahmerika is the ratio but;

The ratio as homologated for Gr N IS a 6.33:1 which translates to 12/76. The car has tons of rpms and decent diameter tires so it can take the FD.


BillyElliot Wrote:
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> Looked around on the site, I think most of what
> you found was for a 2000 B-series trans. 1) I've
> heard that the B series trans is a bit more
> durable than the new 6 speed and that 2) some guys
> have taken the 5 speed, and with an adapter plate,
> have put it on the K series. 3) Something like
> 1000hp drag cars on stock GSR trans or something
> silly like that. Anyone can correct me if I'm
> wrong though. I got out of the Honda tuning right
> when the K series motor came in, so all my tricks
> and trade are with the B series motors.
>
> 4)However, from just plugging and chugging a K
> series with a stock trans ratio, a 6.33 final
> drive, and stock 8000rpm redline you got a pretty
> damn good 1-5spd and a nice 6th gear for transits.
> Even with the buddy club 5.46 final drive you're
> looking good.
>
> To me, it seems you can get a good ratio by going
> with a real high final drive on the K series 6
> speed, either keep the stock LSD and later upgrade
> to a clutch type or just go straight clutch type
> from the start. Don't know how well the gears
> would deal with some tuned K series motors or
> rally abuse, but seems like a good start to work
> with.

Yikes...ok, you have way too many twisted facts on this post that almost sounds like a ricer kid on honda-tech (no pun), so let me see if I can get a hold of it.

1)The B series gearbox is actually weaker in terms of its case and the shafts spreading right at where 2nd is located.

2)The B series gearbox can NEVER be used into a K series engine becuase they spin the oposite way. Unless you wanted to race backwards. Drag racers tend to like the K series 5spd because of its lower 1st and 2nd gear ratios.

3)1000whp would cream the final drive and 2nd through 4th on any of these trannies if they were stock.

4)The 6.33 is far from a nice 1-5 and 6th for transits. Its more like a 1st for rock crawling and a 2-6 for racing. On transits in 6th gear in doing 60mph at 4000rpms.

A good thing about these cars is that the trannies (5 or 6spd) can take the abuse, people in roadracing and drag racing are putting them through the paces and they're holding up. The engines, well its honda, they last forever.

You can buy any light honda shell and swap a K series into it and rule.

According SEMA’s Chairman, Jim Cozzie, the Honda K series is the best engine/tranny swap on the market at the moment.

-P

Yeah I looked around and saw that holy fuck they do use 6.33, shit the bed!!!

Gotta live and learn.

Sound like the box x final ain't so bad.
You just skip first most of the time?

I've suggested that to VW boys, just consider it a 4 speed and a drive on the trailer gear.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Cosworth Wrote:

> A good thing about these cars is that the trannies
> (5 or 6spd) can take the abuse, people in
> roadracing and drag racing are putting them
> through the paces and they're holding up. The
> engines, well its honda, they last forever.
> -P

Didnt yours crack twice already? Internals may be strong but the case is questionable, right?

---

rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

This is what happens when you get out of the honda world at the B-series marker. You spit out ricer info that's all wrong.

But if a 6.33 is insane high final drive? what gives a good 1-5 box and a 6th gear for transit?

BillyElliot Wrote:
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> This is what happens when you get out of the honda
> world at the B-series marker. You spit out ricer
> info that's all wrong.
>
> But if a 6.33 is insane high final drive? what
> gives a good 1-5 box and a 6th gear for transit?

Continuing his one man battle to uphold the English language........
6.33 is "LOW" or short gearing, 3.08 would be HIGH or tall or long.

Think of it this way: in a old pick up 1st gear is say 4.25, we call that !st or LOW gear, and then 5th is say 1:1 or 0.72 and we call it high or top gear.

as for your what give question you have to consider the box and the final drive.

The shape of the cam determines the powerband, the powerband determines the need for the gear spacing, the end use of the car determines the final drive.

That sorta clear?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I'm picking it up bit by bit. In college I took a bunch of engine/combustion/pollution courses since I was thinking of working in the auto industry developing engines. Most of my stuff when it came to transmissions, I just got a fog in my head and didn't want to go into it much. Same goes in a way for suspension design. I know the basic concepts behind them, but the knowledge you guys have of it blows my mind away.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
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> You just skip first most of the time?
I've been starting in 2nd to prevent excesive wheel spin and because 1st is only 29mph. I feel that now starting with 2nd, being slightly longer and quick ratios thourgh 6th is a perfect combo, just like a true race gearset. I'm thinking of removing 1st altogeter and leaving a spacer and a bearing on there instead. (just as the 5spd box has a spacer on the 6th spot)

turoc Wrote:
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> Didnt yours crack twice already? Internals may be
> strong but the case is questionable, right?

Oscar, you know that the box case cracked not from being abused by me but because of rocks making love with it. In New York after the skid plate broke, I'm surprised it was just the tranny that cracked and the oil pan held up.

The guys in Europe running those N3 civics type R have the exact same engine/tranny as mine and you know they dont drive like over here


Here's a civic going all out on a rough stage.

Cosworth Wrote:
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> Here's a civic going all out on a rough stage.
>
>
>
>


Thats not rough, thats how a rally stage should be! That looks like fun!

JVL,

"The shape of the cam determines the powerband, the powerband determines the need for the gear spacing, the end use of the car determines the final drive."

Very well put!

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

BillyElliot Wrote:
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> I'm picking it up bit by bit. In college I took a
> bunch of engine/combustion/pollution courses since
> I was thinking of working in the auto industry
> developing engines. Most of my stuff when it came
> to transmissions, I just got a fog in my head and
> didn't want to go into it much. Same goes in a
> way for suspension design. I know the basic
> concepts behind them, but the knowledge you guys
> have of it blows my mind away.

Hey Billy, some of this stuff rerally has to be experienced to REALLY know what the effect is.
And I make a real distinction between to know and to believe.
(Great essay I have assigned employees: The Fixation of Belief by James Peirce
http://www.peirce.org/writings/p107.html )

For example, re gear ratios. Even though I had my first real close ratio gear set way back in 1968, and by 1970 I was doing tooth counts and comparing real moto-cross boxes to "trailbike" boxes to see the difference and raced pretty damn serious from 1970 thru end of 1979 (we talking racing up to 5 times a month and many more days, most Tuesdays and Thursdays practicing as amateur and up to 6 times a month once doing Internationals) and and of course fully conversant with the gearbox and final drive (and on motorcycles there's also the Primary Drive--the gear reduction between crankshaft and the clutch which sits on the input shaft of the box), so even though I had thousands of hours banging gears,.......
I really had no idea what it would feel like in a stinkin car back in '85 when I got a real proper close ratio box--and 5.83:1 final drive and all steel LSD---.

Now by '85 I had been playing in the woods with various friends in typical for the times cars 2-3 times a month, and I had a stock box and a 5.45 final drive.

SO depsite years of experience I was shocked at the difference the box made in SUSTAINING the acceleration. I mean on the level with 5.45 it did go pretty good.

But UP HILLS!!!! I could do gearchanges and it would keep accelerating---cause it didn't go like everybody else's cars like WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaeeeeeeeeeeeeeee--DUH!!!uuuuuhhh uuuhh uhhhhhhhhhhuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuaaaaaaaaaahhh ahhhhhhhhhaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAaAAAAAAAA
DUUUHHH.

I was amazed. My friends were amazed. I didn't KNOW till then.
I use uphills because its a serious load, we went up longer and steeper hills than I've ever seen in US rally but a big load is a big load, it could be say a heavier car (like a Fucus).

Point is some stuff just either has to be taken as a matter of FAITH or belief (as I did when I was told by Topi and my old friend Kaj at Trendspeed in Stockholm "You have to get a close ratio box with at least the 5.45 but for you with a weenier motor, get a 5.85" and the actual "understanding" coming after the fact when you actually experience the thing.

Anyways that concept "look, see, withhold conclusion, do, then understand" is counter to our Western educational system and our culture, but I did it for years both in moto-cross and in car shit and it works. I did it like that because I was lucky enough to be in a sport where even the World Champions at the time I got in trailered the cars to events or maybe, at the most, had a Transit van and you could park next to them and just shoot the shit and since they maybe were on the same bike as i was I knew their World Championship results was 100% down to WHAT THEY DID, not the equipment since I had the same thing (albeit stock and theirs was maybe max "cleaned up" in the ports)

So I knew that if I DID WHAT THEY TOLD ME, eithewr verbally or with their actions, and did it faithfully, I could do something approaching what they did.
(It took 7-8 years of near full time effort)(I wasn't that good and had knee injuries)

Admittedly not listening to the front part of your brain screaming at you is hard, habits are hard to break including in how we regard learning and knowledge, after all we've all had a life time of a culture telling us "take the class, aask some questions, read the book take the test and get an A you now know the subject".

So a LOT of what I write here and elsewhere is essentially trying to get people to look at PREVIOUS SUCCESSFUL examples of things ATTHE HIGHEST LEVEL OF RESULTS WE CAN FIND INFORMATION ON (and that ain't some fuckin rally-ex in Kaintucky) and try to point out what the elements of whatever it is that are the SIGNIFICANT things leading to one thing or technique being better than another.

Capice?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.