Dual Fuel Pumps...yes? no?
Posted by 240tshead
240tshead Taylor Shead Ultra Moderator Location: UTA, Texas Join Date: 02/28/2011 Age: Settling Down Posts: 102 Rally Car: scrap heap |
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john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Senior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
You really think they would do something that sketchy? No, they wouldn't. They simply don't do everything on serious cars to some absurd crazy excess just because a buncha kids in garages repeat endlessly 225! 225! 225! You think you car needs 60 gallons per hour fuel? John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
slidewayswrx Patrick Darrow Professional Moderator Location: Portland OR Join Date: 12/30/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 379 Rally Car: Swedish John Deere |
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John Reed John Reed Mega Moderator Location: Portland, Oregon Join Date: 06/09/2012 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 176 Rally Car: Toyota AE86 |
I have way overkill in mine as well (both pumps on I could support around 1500whp), because there is no real reason not too. I get the pumps cheaper than I could something that flows less, and they are barely trying to do what I need them to do. Current draw is nice and low and the motor should be working at well under rated capacity. Fuel supply is critical to an engine, and when you start talking turbocharged and higher rail pressures, then having some headroom in your supply system is that much more critical. I see way too many cars where fuel systems are running at 100%, and that is bad in a lot of ways.
I completely agree with keeping stuff simple, but if a pump is priced right and reliable, then it doesn't really matter if it has 4x, 10x or whatever the flow rate capability you need. A small argument could be made regarding heating of the fuel by circulating an excess amount through the rail but not sure any of us will notice the difference in fuel temp with various pumps, and that can be negated anyway by how you plumb your fuel system. A lot can be learned by looking back at old works cars but on the flip side technology has moved rapidly ahead in some areas to the point we can get way cooler and better parts for a lot less than if we try and get exactly what was once used. John Reed John Reed Racing www.johnreedracing.com johnreedracing@gmail.com |
Jay Jay Woodward Mega Moderator Location: Snohomish, WA Join Date: 12/21/2005 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 893 Rally Car: '90 Mazdog Frankenprotege |
my car came to me with a a pair of Tiltons in the trunk. I see no reason to change that out, although I was thinking about running just one, and putting a switch on the dash so I switch to the other on the fly if the first one gives up.
Jay Woodward Snohomish, WA '90 Mazdog Frankenprotege Chronologically, 46... |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Senior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
A "truism".... bearings are bearings...still. Roller vanes are still roller vanes. Fuel inlet diameter of 14mm on an "old" Bosch pump is still 14mm, and the inlets on the Wal-Bros are still tiny. May arched eye-brows are just arching a tad when I see people doing anything for non-specific reasons---or "just cause everybody says". Same applies to turbos, same applies to injectors.....bigger is not necessarily always the thing to do just cause hundreds of kids on forums say so. No jumpin on you but almost every time I see the phrase "technology has moved ahead, if I ask in the particular case that whoever is lecturing me on, "in this case, what "technology" has changed?" I invariably get called an asshole or a know-it-all or "stuck in the 70s"....... Particularly ironic when its around turbochagers and engines, and I know the person in question has built not one motor in their life, and runs a stock turbo---and they are dismissing whatever turbo I may be suggesting without ever even seeing one, ever measuring a single part of it, ever even asking a single question about it....they know all in advance, and laugh as if they know a thing....precisely like happened on the thread about the Honda Civic. Not a single person asked what I had in mind---except the owner who is asking and PMing..... John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
TronDD Tim Meunier Mega Moderator Location: Boston, MA Join Date: 10/27/2011 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 252 Rally Car: 96 Subaru Impreza |
While I do agree with what you said, John, you focused on the wrong thing. A 486 computer is probably good enough for what a lot of people use a computer for, surfing the web and deleting spam email. But you can't even get anything that slow any more. And if you found someone making them, they would probably cost about as much as a modern computer. In the specific case of a fuel pump, the change in technology is probably more in the manufacturing process that makes them cheaper. Tim. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Senior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
probably? Maybe. but what? or volume.., or where...like somewhere I'm going in November where industrial wages are vastly lower. Or materials? Who knows...I'm just curious why everything always has to be so much huger-er than any conceivable need by a factor or 2 or 3. Me thinks that it is the victory of advertising, aka persusion, multiplied by 10,000 voicing ---with maybe not one of which ever paused to think----the same thing.. Kinda like the USA/Canada "50% of the field being a Sub-a-rat" where in the entire rest of the world its less than 4%...... John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
aj_johnson A.J. Johnson Infallible Moderator Location: Pendleton OR Join Date: 01/07/2011 Age: Settling Down Posts: 1,381 Rally Car: 88 Audi 80 |
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John Reed John Reed Mega Moderator Location: Portland, Oregon Join Date: 06/09/2012 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 176 Rally Car: Toyota AE86 |
Yeah and I think we have a few different angles going on in this thread to boot. I agree with points you and John both made. I think all I was really trying to say is, just because Brand X did it one way back then, doesn't automatically mean it is the best way now (or was even ideal then, maybe they made do with what they had, happens even at the works level), though it certainly still could be! It was perhaps a bit too broad of a point given the subject of fuel pumps, because it is indeed true that fuel pumps have not gained a whole lot (other than the already covered cost versus performance and a bit smaller size) as time has progressed. All you really need to do is find a quality pump that fits the budget, that is capable of supporting your power goals with some room to spare. Plenty of ways to skin that cat. Most cars I see though, the fuel systems are borderline in capacity. Seems to be just human nature to buy "just enough" or their needs grew and their fuel system quickly becomes not big enough. When you buy this stuff, typically going a bit bigger doesn't cost anything more and then you have some room for growth or for anything else that might reduce your intended margins for error. Just my $0.02 John's point is very valid though, don't do something just because someone on the interwebs (who potentially has never touched a car, or worse has touched a car and never had it go right) said to do that. There is more misinformation out there than good. Do the research, do the math yourself and talk to people you KNOW are out there actually doing. John Reed John Reed Racing www.johnreedracing.com johnreedracing@gmail.com |
John Reed John Reed Mega Moderator Location: Portland, Oregon Join Date: 06/09/2012 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 176 Rally Car: Toyota AE86 |
Maybe not even aimed at me, but figured I would explain before someone thought I was saying that they should put huge fuel system in (when I really just jumped in to state I think two pumps is an awesome idea). I went way big on on my fuel pump flow for a very scientific reason - I had them on my shelf (use them a lot for other projects) and I was too cheap and lazy to source something else. They are inexpensive, they work great, and are running WAY under rated capacity. I like that. I also went way big on my injectors (725cc) for my power rating, because I wanted an injector that I had all the correct battery compensation and flow data for and one that was big enough to let me mess with injection timing at full load (I am at 30% duty cycle at max load/rpm). So I do realize that bigger isn't always better (no matter what porn teaches you) but I had reasons that put me where I am at with my fuel system. May not be good reasons for everyone (or anyone). John Reed John Reed Racing www.johnreedracing.com johnreedracing@gmail.com |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Senior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
See? That's why we get along, you think.. By the way, don't know if you know it but I believe the reason they make a million injectors with different flow is cause they're happiest at a given range. Maybe yours are happy. But I have been warned against insane oversize because of droplet size when mondo injectors are run on the low end of their range... Way back in last century Ford used a Bosch "Grey" injector for 420-480 range...so naturally every cossie good in UK wants to brag they're running "Greys" at the pub.... Ford themselves decided for better running to run 2 "803 Greens" better-er , cleaner at less than full throttle and all the fuel they want... And you'd shit if i posted what Ford used for the various HP steps: about half what every Subie (keyboard) expert advises everybody. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
240tshead Taylor Shead Ultra Moderator Location: UTA, Texas Join Date: 02/28/2011 Age: Settling Down Posts: 102 Rally Car: scrap heap |
Oh I know I don't need these but it was a good deal...or it seemed so. And when I decide to go FI later and push some real ponies then they will be here for mehhhhh.
EDIT: Also I wasn't really going to run both at once, one would just be a backup.....maybe I could put the trigger for the second one on a pressure switch from the first system....or should I keep it all manual control? EDIT EDIT: Also not quite sure how to run the lines. Two complete lines up to the rail and Y it in or?? I'm using factory rail for now. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2012 01:04AM by 240tshead. |
aj_johnson A.J. Johnson Infallible Moderator Location: Pendleton OR Join Date: 01/07/2011 Age: Settling Down Posts: 1,381 Rally Car: 88 Audi 80 |
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Anything you can have a backup for is a good thing unless they add too much weight to your car.
When I rallied (back in the 70's) I liked two fuel pumps, separate lighting systems on their own wiring switches and relays (regardless of the rules), at least 2 fire extinguishers or a fire system and an extinguisher, etc. Less makes you faster. More makes you slower, but more likely to finish. It depends on how much money you have. If you have tons of money, then go for light and fast (there is always the next rally). If you don't have lots of money go for reliability if you can't afford to go to many rallies. For me it was always more fun to finish near the back of the pack than to DNF. |
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