How does the thought of a cage-less sprint event strike you?

Preface: I (and at this point, my wife) am working on trying to bring rally to Utah. I've drank pretty heavily from the "smaller, shorter, local-er events" kool-aid, and think that it could work here - a decent size population center, not far from suitable (and hopefully, useable) roads.



In the networking I've been doing, the potential to use the local track's "desert course" has been suggested. I've toured it, and it actually seems like it might be pretty usable. It won't be difficult to set a ~4 mile stage, with the start and finish not too far apart we could just hot lap it all day. It's not particularly rough either - rougher than Idaho, probably no worse than the good stage (Wilson Pass?) at seed 9, definitely less rough than the other stage at seed 9....

Thing is, they've got their own insurance (normally used for track days etc) that they claim we could use as well, and [if we want] run without requiring cages.

I'm not sure how I feel about that.

On one hand, it could be great - not requiring cages definitely opens the door to a lot more potential competitors. A true stepping stone, both from a 'time/money just to do the event' and from a 'time/money to get a car that's legal to compete' perspective is really needed IMO.

On the other hand, it could be a disaster in the making. I'd certainly prefer not to have anybody get hurt. The fact that very few others in the US sanction/insure similar types of events seems like it could present the opportunity to be ruled as negligent.

So, if you had such an event locally, would you consider running it? Would you actively avoid it?

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

The short answer is that I would do it in an instant (but, then again, I happen to have one of the strongest and safest cageless cars available).

The long answer is that you might look into what the SCCA called Solo 1 for an analogy. In brief, Solo 1 is the higher-speed version of Solo 2 (aka "autocrossing" ). The normal rules with regard to maximum speeds are relaxed in Solo 1, but the same general rules regarding one car at a time and penalty for cones, etc, apply. There was some apocalyptic talk when Solo 1 was first floated, but, from what I know (and I've been out of autocrossing for some time, so take this with more salt than my usual posts), there were no serious incidents at Solo 1 events.

What I'm saying is that, maybe, rather than coming at this as a scaled-down rally, approach it as a scaled-up rallycross. While you might not enjoy dealing with the SCCA, you will find more encouragement from rallycrossers wanting to go faster over longer distances than you will find from rallyers wanting a shorter event. If you read around (esp. on this site) and see the labels given to "cone-smooshers" and "grass-o-crossers" by rallyists, as opposed to the labels given "real rally drivers" by rallycrossers, you'll get a feel for what I'm saying.

In any event (as it were), good luck!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2013 05:10PM by Iowa999.

I think the course layout, speed, and amount of immovable objects just off course would play a big part. There just has to be steps taken to minimize the posibilities of competitiors getting in way over their heads in under-prepaired vehicles.
I would have no problem running this event.

I don't know for sure on speeds yet (tour of the facility was in the rain, from the passenger seat of a raptor truck - working on getting some cars out there to get a better feel), but I don't think the SCCA has anything to offer us right now.

Chances are good that the speeds will be outside of the limits of the SCCA's rallycross rules:

Quote

Speeds on straight stretches should not normally
exceed 40 mph (miles per hour) for Stock category vehicles and should not
normally exceed 60 mph for any vehicle. Turns should not normally allow
speeds in excess of 30 mph for Stock category vehicles; however, the maximum
speed in turns for any vehicle should not normally exceed 40 mph.

I know that SCCA has been talking about bringing back their RallySprint program, but everything I've heard says that will have a cage requirement, albeit lower spec than stage cages.

Pretty squarely outside of NRS rallycross too:

Quote

5.3 Course Design
1. The course shall not exceed 1.5 miles long.
2. The course shall be arranged such that the maximum speed for an average competitor
shall not exceed 45 mph.

Trying to decide whether it's a scaled-up rallycross or a scaled-down rally just seems like semantics at this point. Yes, those out of our rallycross group that I've spoken to are excited about the idea - that doesn't say much to me whether it's a good or bad idea.

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

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Robert Culbertson
I think the course layout, speed, and amount of immovable objects just off course would play a big part. There just has to be steps taken to minimize the posibilities of competitiors getting in way over their heads in under-prepaired vehicles.
I would have no problem running this event.

The good news is that the closest things to immovable objects at this particular venue are the small berms at the side of the road and the small ravine (which has a path slaloming down it, half-pipe style) if we decided to use it. Oh, and the cows.

Speeds are likely faster than typical rallycross - but not sure by how much.

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

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Aaron Luptak
Speeds are likely faster than typical rallycross - but not sure by how much.

That's a good thing! The first rally cross I went to in me ol volvo wagoon had us going 45mph through a bunch of gates in an "s" pattern. Crossed up all the way, it was awesome! Now you are lucky to get out of 2nd gear. Not so awesome.

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Aaron Luptak
Trying to decide whether it's a scaled-up rallycross or a scaled-down rally just seems like semantics at this point.

You are probably correct. I said that based on my experiences working with various sanctioning bodies and site-owners. Those experiences taught me that how you label the event can make a huge difference. The same event described to the same people as, for example, a scaled-up rallycross vs a scaled-down rally can give a first impression that can make or break negotiations. If I had approached a certain airport in Pennsylvania saying "I want do run a time-trials event on your runways," said event would probably never have happened. But I said that I want to do a faster-than-usual autocross and they answered "when?" I fear that if you approach any of the US sanctioning bodies with "I want to do a sprint-rally without cages," it will never happen. If you say that you want to do a faster-than-usual and point-to-point rallycross, it might.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2013 05:55PM by Iowa999.

The thought of running one? Sure, I'd run one. Would I organize one? Hell no! The main thing I see that I get as an organizer out of a sanctioning body is legal protection in the event that something happens. I really wish that information about legal action taken against organizers and sanctioning bodies was more public. I did hear once that the codriver that died at ________ family sued sanctioning body, driver, organizers, etc. Sure, he signed the waiver and was there at his own accord, but that doesn't keep his family from filing suit. Where there's a death, there's a lawyer willing to try to sue in hopes of a decent settlement...

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Grant Hughes

Of course, what he is describing is no different than people racing on a road course or doing HPDE that is timed. All things that are covered by track insurance (as was stated). Might want to purchase some personal liability insurance while you are at it though.

It sounds like a great idea to me. Because Europeans and Americans see rallycross as different things (until recently, but even then, it's called "euro rallycross" for a reason), I'd advertise it as a scaled up rallyx. The way you want to go about doing things is exactly how we are able to have "european style rallycross" at our local race track (two exhibition events have been put on so far).

Perhaps look towards something like the Japanese Dirt Trial events:

http://speedsociety.com/2013-all-japan-dirt-trial-monster-super86/

It appears the course is designed with very high berms to prevent roll overs. I remember reading an article about it that said they allow stock to full prep classes. Cage prep level seemed dictated by speed. Seemed like they took a NHRA approach. Go fast enough and you're done untill it gets caged.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2013 08:38PM by Greg Donovan.

How do the hillclimb guys do it? If I'm not mistaken, you don't even need a cage in the lower classes (or any?).
Gene may have some input on the Hill Climbing rules.

As far as approaching the event, I think calling it a faster rally-x is a lot better then a rally sprint sans cage.

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Greg Donovan
Perhaps look towards something like the Japanese Dirt Trial events:

http://speedsociety.com/2013-all-japan-dirt-trial-monster-super86/

It appears the course is designed with very high berms to prevent roll overs. I remember reading an article about it that said they allow stock to full prep classes. Cage prep level seemeddictated by speed. Seemed lime they took a NHRA approach. Go fast enough and you're done untill it gets caged.

YIKES!!!! Old man can put the foot down! He has to be older than me. He's gotten a lot better since we last went nose to nose! (Olympus 1986)

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

well some thoughts

1. rallycross in idaho has had some roll overs
2. NHA doesnt have cages (as discussed)
3. berms kinda cause my last roll over experience.

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First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

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Gravity Fed
well some thoughts

1. rallycross in idaho has had some roll overs
2. NHA doesnt have cages (as discussed)
3. berms kinda cause my last roll over experience.

Yeah.
Berms are a cornering aid---for bikes.
For cars they can be a sudden stop when going sideways and that means sudden flips. Flat run off is best if there is space.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Gravity Fed
well some thoughts

1. rallycross in idaho has had some roll overs
2. NHA doesnt have cages (as discussed)
3. berms kinda cause my last roll over experience.

1. yep - and in a lot of ways, this would be pretty similar to idaho rx, but longer. (and without the bs average time for scoring)

2. NHA is also the only hillclimb group that I know of that doesn't require cages. I know for sure that CHCA and SCCA require cages for hillclimbs. Pretty sure the folks in PA do as well.

3. will definitely be examining the berms to see how solid they are next time I'm out there. the "roads" are, for the most part, no more than 18 months old I think - so maybe they're soft? the berms aren't too big - no more than 8" tall in most places I think.

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com