How does the thought of a cage-less sprint event strike you?

NHA doesn't have insurance as we think about it. They only have a liability policy covering them. No medical for competitors or workers, or so I've been told. Their insurance is hundreds per event rather than thousands. Honestly it is a matter of time, there are some very fast cars in that crowd and some steep landing zones.

There are a couple of problems with speed and no cages. Obviously a roll over to some extent. A wheel coming off and a snap roll or endo . The next issue is no cage equals no good restraints. Two people and a roll with traditional passenger belts will have the occupants smacking into each other possibly quite violently. Ouch. So make sure you are covered insurance wise. 99% of the time there won't be a problem even with a wreck, but that 1% can ruin your life.

I whole heartedly feel we need something in between rallyX and rally but don't have a solution. Maybe a class with roll bars, belts and helmets.

Back when I was in PA, they had that middle-ground for some hill-climbs. Moderately-prepped cars had 4-points, not full cages. Even a drag-cage would do.

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Aaron Luptak

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Gravity Fed
3. berms kinda cause my last roll over experience.

3. will definitely be examining the berms to see how solid they are next time I'm out there. the "roads" are, for the most part, no more than 18 months old I think - so maybe they're soft? the berms aren't too big - no more than 8" tall in most places I think.

It's not the "height" of a given berm - but rather the ANGLE. Tall but shallow-leadup + hardpack = Safe (relatively speaking). Short rise but steep leadup + any turns = Curb (even if it didn't START as a "curb" ), otherwise known as "Anybody got a Towtruck in their pocket?"

The SCCA is currently discussing the RallySprint "thing" - I have it on fairly good authority that it has already been established it will NOT be on "open" roads (I took that to mean any public road whatsoever, closed or otherwise), and probably FIA/Performance Rally level of cage prep (that bit is still under advisement).

It never hurts to check, but I'm betting you can probably cross them off your Sanctioning Body list. At least for the forseeable future.

(BTW I absolutely LOVE the idea of a "cageless" Rallysprint, personally. SCCA, not so much it seems)

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2013 01:10AM by Creech.

When it comes to safety gear, whenever you want to remove an item from being required I think you need to look at what it protects the occupant from and understand how that risk is being addressed.
As an example. If the venue has no trees or 'poles' to hit, you can probably make an argument for a 4 point roll bar or 6 point cage without doorbars.

CARS RallySprint used to have a staggered cage requirement where beginners could have a 4 point rollbar (I think) but as you gained experience, and presumably speed, you needed a full cage. That was changed around a decade ago.

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Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Creech
(BTW I absolutely LOVE the idea of a "cageless" Rallysprint, personally. SCCA, not so much it seems)

When this came up for Solo 1, one possibility was allowing cageless cars if they still had all of their factory airbags. Do you happen to know if this (crazy) idea has come up again this time?

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Iowa999

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Creech
(BTW I absolutely LOVE the idea of a "cageless" Rallysprint, personally. SCCA, not so much it seems)

When this came up for Solo 1, one possibility was allowing cageless cars if they still had all of their factory airbags. Do you happen to know if this (crazy) idea has come up again this time?

No I do not. But I will bring it up on the next call.

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heymagic


I whole heartedly feel we need something in between rallyX and rally but don't have a solution. Maybe a class with roll bars, belts and helmets.

I keep saying the "brisk" Monte Carlo run 5 minutes after a club event worked once before....

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John Vanlandingham
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john vanlandingham

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heymagic


I whole heartedly feel we need something in between rallyX and rally but don't have a solution. Maybe a class with roll bars, belts and helmets.

I keep saying the "brisk" Monte Carlo run 5 minutes after a club event worked once before....

Yes it did work once, back when cars had about 1/2 the power they do now and one car beat a good many of the actual rally cars entered. Today with the number of used or converted WRX cars it would be madness, even a stock Focus or Cavalier has more power than the average 'built' rally car from 1985.

It pretty much would have to be like one of Duhneece's off road extreme adventure abortions, no trees, no drop offs, nothing but sand and flat ground.

I think the big thing to consider between groups is what surfaces are people running on.

Rollovers rarely happen at auto-x.
Rollovers aren't that common at a track day.
Not sure about rollovers at a tarmac hillclimb - but knowing what I know about PPIHC, I can't fathom that its treated like autox in terms of safety construction.

Rollovers do happen at rally-x.
Rollovers happen a bunch in stage rally and/or dirt hillclimbs.

With how fast 'stock' cars can be these days, I think its a good idea to have roll cages once you step beyond the speeds seen at rallyx if you're racing on loose surfaces. Does everyone need a cage...not really, but you have to plan for the lowest common denominator.

Dave

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Creech

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Iowa999

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Creech
(BTW I absolutely LOVE the idea of a "cageless" Rallysprint, personally. SCCA, not so much it seems)

When this came up for Solo 1, one possibility was allowing cageless cars if they still had all of their factory airbags. Do you happen to know if this (crazy) idea has come up again this time?

No I do not. But I will bring it up on the next call.

That was 90% curiosity; if I hadn't been in Canada with VCMC at the time, I would have asked what kind of incident they were thinking an airbag would be protection against. For what we're talking about here, I think that the main issue is rollovers, as suggested above, and airbags are not particular useful in that case, either.

Plus these surfaces could result in unintended airbag deployment.

Seem like the Japanese have the right idea racing the cars in the deep trenches.

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Aaron Luptak
Chances are good that the speeds will be outside of the limits of the SCCA's rallycross rules:

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Speeds on straight stretches should not normally
exceed 40 mph (miles per hour) for Stock category vehicles and should not
normally exceed 60 mph for any vehicle. Turns should not normally allow
speeds in excess of 30 mph for Stock category vehicles; however, the maximum
speed in turns for any vehicle should not normally exceed 40 mph.

That rule bugs me a bit, because there are so many factors that can't be condensed down to a sentence. I've been to sites where 40mph would have been scary fast and sites where 70 seemed slow. (Would seem slow. Yeah, that's it...) And anybody who thinks that Stock cars are significantly slower than the other classes is smoking something...

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
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The SCCA rallycross rules were semi-plagiarized from the autocross rules, with just the numbers changed. I'm not saying that the autocross rules make a whole lot of sense, because I ran in some events that met the letter of the rules and were ridiculously dangerous (and twice spoke to the event's Safety Steward after walking the course); I'm just explaining how they ended up that way.

Is it just the cage rules that would be relaxed?
What about seats, harnesses, airbags?
Or are you also not requiring restrictors?

Allowing large displacement (like the Raptor you ran the course in)?

Personally, I wouldn't run in a non-caged car. But I know my driving style.

I'm not even comfortable doing rally-x in my daily driver.

Harnesses are a good issue to raise. The SCCA allows you to wear a 6-point harness in a cageless car, if you wish. Heck, I'm seen people in convertibles (e.g., CS Miatae) with 4-, 5-, and 6-points and not even a roll-bar, sliding the tail within 20 feet of a curb.

edit: my wife just reminded me of the time I almost got poked in the snoot at Divisionals ... I told a guy in CS Miata that I thought it was cool that his wife, girlfriend, or daughter let him race her car, and then asked what he normally drove. Kind of like the time that I asked a guy in a Forester whether it was the Martina Navratilova edition. (This is why I'm now restricted to the internet, instead of face-to-face.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2013 04:52PM by Iowa999.