Idaho 2014

!R4 o.c.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rumor has it that a couple cars just drove past and our own Dave Clark stopped for the wreck. Any truth ?

Glad to hear they're ok!

On a somewhat related note, I heard that someone threw a red cross on Saturday after wrecking (crew ok) and ending up with the car blocking the stage. Is that an expected use of the red cross? I'd figure in that case you'd be out with the triangles and waving madly to slow folks down, but wouldn't think that's a red cross situation.

(also curious where it happened, as most of the roads used are pretty dang wide)

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

Red cross is supposed to be for medical issues only. As long as no cars got by and reported a medical issue, which then dispatches Ecrews and medical help, no foul. I think we need another sign for stoppage , maybe a red hand or some such. There are people who don't slow down for the triangle, waving hand thing. Silly people but it happens.

yea

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First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

I really want to see how the cage performed.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Looking at some new cage builds (RA) I was thinking the x in the roof hoop was overkill and was trying to figure out the point of it. I think I possibly just saw the point of it. That and getting elements as tights as humanly possible to the shell.

Thoughts on speedy recovery.

Quote
heymagic
Red cross is supposed to be for medical issues only.

I agree... but there are a lot of people who will use it just to get someone stopped. (I recently heard of someone using a red cross to try and get a tow out of a ditch)
A few years ago we saw it deployed for a massive grass fire that was crossing the road, at first I thought there was a car on fire because of the red cross, so was getting really panicked.

Quote
heymagic
I think we need another sign for stoppage , maybe a red hand or some such. There are people who don't slow down for the triangle, waving hand thing. Silly people but it happens.

It is an interesting discussion point for sure. The CARS board has heard a couple of calls for a third sign and has regularly come down on the idea that what we have now is enough. The biggest thing to remember is that in the CARS rules it is clearly laid out that a single triangle could mean a complete blockage of the stage. (The reality is that there could be a complete blockage of the stage with NO triangles.)

Emergency procedure rules need to be built from the worst case scenario backwards. This incident was an example of a car off, but visible, with two unconscious occupants, unable to deploy triangles or an OK sign. This means we have to instill the mindset of 'NO OK, STOP' in competitors.

So, see a co-driver with a triangle but no OK sign?
Be ready to stop if you don't see the driver with an OK sign.

Adding a third sign would only dilute that message.

An interesting thing from some of the crackbook comments was that Sean Medcroft was under the impression that CARS was the only sanctioning body that required teams to stop if no OK. All three rulebooks have similar language, CARS is just the one with heavy penalties attached (10 minutes PLUS $500)

One difference is that generally in Canada we walk through the triangle procedure at every driver's meeting (as well as the novice meeting, so they get it twice at each event) Certainly I've said in drivers meetings I've held that a 'clear indication the crew is OK' is acceptable in lieu of the actual OK sign. We've all been changing a flat on the side of the stage and we all know how much of a pain in the ass it is to show the OK every minute or so, but it really is an important part of our communications and safety response system. I'll likely change my message on that a bit because of this.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Got home a little bit ago. Blew the freeze plug out of the back of the head and popped the motor (after having plenty of prior issues) The two stages we did get to run were a blast! The JVAB boingers were confidence inspiring to say the least.

I've only got second hand info on the cars past Gottlieb, but from what I heard t was 100% unintentional and exacerbated by a corner working holding a child in one arm and making gestures with the other.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2014 11:44AM by aj_johnson.

I inspected the bent car pretty closely. The cage was well-built and performed as expected. At the top, the double A-pillar and windshield gussets worked together to keep that corner from collapsing farther. There was a lot of buckling and the tubes fractured right next to the welds, but it stayed together and dissipated the energy. At the bottom, there was an X in the door and a sillbar (so three bars). That all held together, but bent inward appreciably. It was hard to tell, but from looking at the passenger side it looks like the sillbar was a couple of inches above the sill, and so the car sill moved differently from the sillbar. In this case, the seat was mounted on bars that ran from the car sill to the center hump, and that moved less than the cage did - thus the hip injury.

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Self-righteous douche canoe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2014 11:48AM by hoche.

"In this case, the seat was mounted on bars that ran from the car sill to the center hump, and that moved less than the cage did - thus the hip injury."

indeed - Glad everyone will be okay. glad you said this the way you did, Hoche.
when learning to build my cage with a cage master ... "attach your seat to the cage so that when the cage moves, you move with it - otherwise, the cage will move in on you!
now someone I know with an RX7 will be installing sill bars and mounting the seat bars to it

The FIA rules say you have to hook your seats to the sill. I would feel best if the sill and the sill bar were welded as close as possible and even stich welded down the side. Im glad every body was okay those are scary hits!

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
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Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
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Quote
Reamer
The FIA rules say you have to hook your seats to the sill. I would feel best if the sill and the sill bar were welded as close as possible and even stich welded down the side. Im glad every body was okay those are scary hits!

Yeah, but only CARS requires the FIA-style mounting (which is what this car had, albeit welded). Both RA and NRS use their own rules instead.

CARS
12.3.12.2 Seat Mounting:
(a) Seats must be such that they are securely attached to the floor of the vehicle in such a
manner as to prevent the movement of the seat in case of an accident. All seats must be
mounted as per FIA Appendix J, Article 253, Article 16: Seats, Anchorage points and
Supports. End plates may be fully welded instead of bolted.
(b) Seat mounting of cars log-booked before June 1, 2011 are subject to the approval of the
scrutineer.


NRS:
3.7 Seats
Seats shall be of one-piece construction, and shall be firmly mounted
to the floor of the vehicle in such a manner as to prevent the
movement of the seat in case of an accident. Aluminum seats (e.g.
Butler Built, Kirkey) are banned as of 3/1/05. Use of FIA
certified/homologated seats is required.


R-A:
5.4. SEATS
A. Driver and co-driver seats shall be firmly mounted to the structure of the
vehicle and be installed per the manufacturer's recommendations. Seat
mounts require the same strength as occupant restraints (3500 lbs.).
B. The use of hinged-back seats in rally vehicles is prohibited.
C. Seats designed by the manufacturer to be mounted with a back support
brace shall be mounted accordingly. Seats not designed to be mounted
with a back support may have one added. Back supports shall be
designed and constructed in such a manner as to spread the load over
as large an area of the seat back as practical.
D. Competitors shall retain manufacturer installation recommendations with
the rally vehicle’s logbook for review at scrutineering.
E. Seats must be intended by their manufacturer to be for competition use.
F. Molded polyethylene (plastic) seats are not allowed.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

We have the red cross discussion every 3-4 years it seems. I'm OK with using the red cross for a situation that is not currently a life safety issue but could soon be if rally cars do not stop, now.

IE Civilian traffic on stage, counter course. Car totally blocking stage over blind crest. etc.

That said, once red cross is shown the stage is toast, done, history. Use wisely.

Slow for triangles, look for OK or CLEAR hand signals indicating OK. STOP if not sure. I don't like propped up OK signs early on after an accident. You might think you and your teammate are fine and a minute or two later find out you are not. That's why I like to SEE a person with the OK so I know.

NO one is getting rich from our hobby, and if you "waste" 10 seconds confirming the OK, I know RA will give you that time back, Anders will do the same. This is what Co drivers are for Drivers can't be trusted with such high order thinking.

We also have the occupant traveling outward towards the door, bars and tree. The impact with the seat alone or the belts pulling downward could result in injury. Shit happens to nice people and there is no way to eliminate the risk. I believe there are a couple fairly large arteries and veins in the hips and upper legs. A guy could easily bleed to death from such injury and the suspected cars just passing and slow response time are an issue we (organizers and sanctioning bodies) need to try and prevent.

Red cross or red hand or no sign or crossed arms or frantic waving must mean STOP and assess. No excuses in the end. This is amateur motorsports and safety is more important than podiums. Scoring can deal with penalties and adjustments. That is pencil and paper stuff.