Idaho 2014

Quote
bknblk2
We have the red cross discussion every 3-4 years it seems. I'm OK with using the red cross for a situation that is not currently a life safety issue but could soon be if rally cars do not stop, now.

IE Civilian traffic on stage, counter course. Car totally blocking stage over blind crest. etc.

my friend used one for that a few years ago, and although no one was hurt, it's pretty possible without it's use, it would have been needed for it's "real" reason

but who knows, maybe she could have gotten them to stop another way, I don't know what I would have done in that situation myself

Whatever the reason, sometimes a stage needs to be stopped. The red cross is just ink on paper. There are no automatic nor magical powers that are set in motion when it is displayed. I'll go hold one up right now....see nothing happens. The medical response is initiated by someone on a radio and that sets wheels in motion. Up to that point nothing dramatic or irrevocable happens.

Point being a red cross used to stop cars for a blockage or traffic or wreck is nothing more than a reaction to a symbol. I would never personally penalize a competitor for displaying a red cross to prevent injury.

I think the outward palm is pretty much considered stop or halt everywhere ..JV or Danster?? We need a more acceptable way to stop traffic without the stigma associated the red cross. Stop and assess...then a medical situation can be determined.

Yeah, I view the red cross as just a general indicator that the stage needs to be stopped. It might be medical, it might be unexpected non-rally traffic, or some else.

However, if a car has spun and is blocking the stage and everyone is ok, that is NOT a red cross situation. That's just...well, it sucks, but the stage is still hot. The subsequent competitors have every right to just work together to toss the car off a cliff or whatever and then hop in and keep going.

I only heard secondhand about the waving in this case, so I'm going to reserve judgement.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

More photos of Grimes Pass South 1 & 2 here in the photo thread- http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,93517,98542#msg-98542
and 150ish more in a web album - https://picasaweb.google.com/106342492527741368800/IdahoRally2014?authuser=0&feat=directlink

---

Brap Brap.

Chris, is it alright if i share some of those 2wd pics on the 2wd rally facebook page. Photo credit given of course?

---

First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Quote
Gravity Fed
Chris, is it alright if i share some of those 2wd pics on the 2wd rally facebook page. Photo credit given of course?

Hey Einstein, why don't you put a perma-link to that Faze-book in the signature at the bottom?

Oh it's dead I see.. people posting Corvette on 4 April..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

please tell me this isn't someone starting a stage with an OK sign showing on the back of the car...
(This, and perminantly mounted OK signs on the bottom of the trunk lid are incredibly poorly thought out practices.)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
bknblk2
I don't like propped up OK signs early on after an accident. You might think you and your teammate are fine and a minute or two later find out you are not. That's why I like to SEE a person with the OK so I know.

A few years ago there was a car that went off big at a CARS national event. The co-driver went to the road an placed a triangle and RED CROSS on the road and went back to tend to the injured driver. The sign blew over and wasn't seen until sweep - they were near the front of the pack.
There are a couple of lessons in that, but the biggest is the display of the OK sign needs to be an ACTIVE process.
To that point, I've always had routebooks made with the red cross on the outside of the back cover (actually called for in the CARS rules) so that you have to actively change it to OK, rather than showing an OK when you can't figure out otherwise. (As sounds like was the case with Krista)

Quote
bknblk2
NO one is getting rich from our hobby, and if you "waste" 10 seconds confirming the OK, I know RA will give you that time back, Anders will do the same. This is what Co drivers are for Drivers can't be trusted with such high order thinking.

I can't think of a single organiser who wouldn't make an allowance for stopping to make sure someone was OK, and I don't know of any steward who wouldn't overturn a decision to not give an allowance.
That said, It's a good reason to run an in-car camera and to be able to review it at the event.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
hoche
...and so the car sill moved differently from the sillbar. In this case, the seat was mounted on bars that ran from the car sill to the center hump, and that moved less than the cage did - thus the hip injury.

But... did that mitigate the risk of more serious injuries? (internal)
I think it is clear that if the seat were attached to the sill bar, the forces on the occupant would have been significantly higher. Could this be a case of the hip injury being the lesser of two evils in this scenario?
(Ferd???)

Also interesting to note that 253.8 doesn't even require a sill bar... While I'm not horribly well positioned to comment on the engineering behind cages, I do think the FIA has the resources and experience (collective or otherwise) to have some idea of what's important.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Gravity Fed
Chris, is it alright if i share some of those 2wd pics on the 2wd rally facebook page. Photo credit given of course?

Absolutely!

---

Brap Brap.

Quote
Morison
please tell me this isn't someone starting a stage with an OK sign showing on the back of the car...
(This, and perminantly mounted OK signs on the bottom of the trunk lid are incredibly poorly thought out practices.)

No, that is the same VW in the photo above it, mid-stage. They forgot about the sign and left the triangle after a hurried few minutes trying to restart the motor.

---

Brap Brap.

Quote
biggreen96
No, that is the same VW in the photo above it, mid-stage. They forgot about the sign and left the triangle after a hurried few minutes trying to restart the motor.

Poorly worded question on my part...

Driving down a stage with an OK sign on the car is a very VERY bad idea.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Gene - so a seat mounted to the cage wont get turned away from RA or NASA?

---

Brap Brap.

This discussion again... face palm.

Let's say you get CRAZY Iorio style on the sill combined with a sill bar like Havas has been doing and had this same accident.
Who is to say that the lack of crunching in the sill from all this super strength wouldn't have just caused a rotational force and led to massive head injury instead of a fractured pelvis.

Saying that the pelvic injury was caused by seats not mounted to the cage is flatulence. I have yet to see an international rally rulebook that requires or suggests this. I would NEVER mount the cage and seat together. I WANT the cage to deform if needed. I DO NOT want the seat to move with it.

Fact is, hitting trees like this will be bad news and anytime someone survives an impact like this we are all grateful and our safety system just worked! I'd take a broken pelvis in an accident like this over death any day!

Side note: I wonder what the risk ratio is for fatality in rallying in 2WD vs AWD and NA vs. turbo AWD. I am unaware of any fatality in Open Light or 2WD cars. Of course, I can't follow the entire world...

---

Grant Hughes

Quote
Morison
But... did that mitigate the risk of more serious injuries? (internal)
I think it is clear that if the seat were attached to the sill bar, the forces on the occupant would have been significantly higher. Could this be a case of the hip injury being the lesser of two evils in this scenario?

I am not prepared to speculate on that one way or another, at least not without revisiting the car armed with a tape measure and pad of paper and a calculator. The forces on the occupant would definitely be higher, but whether it's in the range needed for internal injuries would require some calculation.

Quote
Morison
Also interesting to note that 253.8 doesn't even require a sill bar... While I'm not horribly well positioned to comment on the engineering behind cages, I do think the FIA has the resources and experience (collective or otherwise) to have some idea of what's important.

Yes, it's interesting to note that.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe