Fuel Cells Revisited

DISCLAIMER:

I already have the cell, just trying to implement it with current rules.

RA RULE:

Quote

5.7. FUEL CONTAINERS
A. No fuel other than that carried in the OE fuel tank or FIA FT-3 or higher
fuel cell bladder shall be carried in any vehicle.
For any fuel cell located inside the car (e.g., the passenger compartment
or trunk), a fireproof and liquid-proof case must surround the fuel cell and
its filler. A fireproof and liquid-proof bulkhead may be used separate the
cockpit from the fuel cell in place of the fireproof and liquid-proof case.
The filler cap and filler pipe or hose is considered part of the fuel cell and
must also be separated from the cockpit by the case or bulkhead.

C. Fuel pumps and filters shall also be isolated from the driver/co-driver by
a metal bulkhead or the fuel cell case. Any nonstandard fuel line located
in the passenger compartment shall be made of metal or metal braided
construction, with self-sealing threads at all connections.

A comment Hurst made back in 07 from SS:

Quote

The common ATL or Fuel safe containers are not "liquid proof", and do not "surround its filler holes". If you sealed the container seams, and modified it to cover the fill holes, then it would comply with the above rules.

Why not just add a new top for the tank with a surrounded filler hole, seal the seams with Hilti fireproof caulking, then run the pumps in another sealed box in the car? I'm just trying to do this the cheapest, easiest and LIGHTEST way possible. Thoughts? Anybody done this?

Current RA non-legal setup:

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2008 11:01PM by Tom B.

Yeah totally understand what you are saying, I had a similar problem on the road race car.

They wanted it in a box, and I'm like FARK it is ALREADY in a box. So if you just either replace the stock top or modify it to have a cover and then seal it with some sort of gasket, I think you're golden. Build a little box for the fuel pumps to live in. Done.

If I were to do it again that is what I'd do.

really frustrating, considering the cage completely envelops the cell. If anything ever touched the cell in a collision, we wouldn't have to worry about the fire...its really a foolish rule...just trying to get it done intelligently without creating a bigger headache.

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT

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What Kris said is what we will accept. The fill must be covered by a lid. The exposed fill pictured is not allowed in a 2 box car.

if you have no filler neck, does the screw on cap (not a 1/4 turn style, but like a 5 turn threaded cap) have to be covered too? Or just the fill plate to the bladder, and the red box in which the bladder lives?

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

heymagic Wrote:
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> What Kris said is what we will accept. The fill
> must be covered by a lid. The exposed fill
> pictured is not allowed in a 2 box car.


Hey Gene,

If I "SEAL" the filler cap where it is at, by building a box with a removable top around it would it be OK? (Of course I would need to seal the seams of the cell as well, right?).

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT

Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA

Question about this "sealing"

So lets say I've got my fuel pump and filter in a sealed box and I need to get to it during a service, I'm not going to have to carry around some caulk to seal it back up right?

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-Jason



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2008 11:19PM by mack73.

mack73 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Question about this "sealing"
>
> So lets say I've got my fuel pump and filter in a
> sealed box and I need to get to it during a
> service, I'm not going to have to carry around
> some caulk to seal it back up right?
>
> 94 Golf
> www.Mack73.com
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Nov 16, 2008 by
> mack73.


I'm not sure of all the ways to seal something. In actuality there aren't very many rear seat mounted fuel cells to look at. However I think a lid could be sealed with aluminum body tape pretty easy. There must be some sort of nomex/kevlar/"asbestos" seals available also. I'll try to get ahols of Mike Hurst today.

Tom,

From the few pictures I have seen (hint hint) the car is looking good. When I was working for VWMS we ran the fill tube to the outside of the car just above the stock location. The vinyl graphics covered the little gas door. I think that there is too much trouble involved with having the fill inside the car. It is possible to encase the fill inside a box but why bother? Also, what is the fill tube made of?

Robert.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

I thought fill tubes also had to be encased in box? Isn't that why Lurch had to get rid of the fill tube in the rear side window of the Mazda?

I'm really starting to think I'll just throw the carb fuel pump up in the engine bay and forget running the pump and filter in the hatch.

Yeah less than ideal, but man this is a pain...

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-Jason

Just use the latest in ATL Home Depot dryer vent technology:

http://www.atlltd.com/092008.pdf

Tom,

I just bought a bladder and had Chad make up our own box. Ours has a flange that is below the floor, meaning there is no flange or seam or seal required inside the car for the perimeter of the box.

That said, I would think if you use a cork gasket material around the flange before you bolt the top on a standard fuel cell, it would meet the letter of the law, but ASK MIKE HURST and don't take my word for it.

Dryer duct tech is NOT allowed. Fuel fill hoses inside the car are not allowed. Ours has a oval shaped (same shape as the fill plate) box that sits on top of the cell box. It is gasketed to the box with cork/rubber gasket material. The top of this oval box is then gasketed and held on with 4 dzus fasteners. To refill the fuel requires one to remove this top lid with a screwdriver...takes about 10 seconds to remove lid and attach hoses. Glue the gasket material to one side or the other with yellow glue or something so it stays put.

Instead of a fill neck going into the fill plate, we made up a plate that fits the cell neck bolt pattern, but has two AN-12 fittings in it. It still uses the little toilet seat rollover valve under the fittings.

Then we screwed in these:

http://www.jiffy-tite.com/photos/ACF1A72%2Ejpg

...in AN-12 size. You need two, one for fill, one for vent. We put the plug on the cell and the socket on the end of the fill/vent hoses.

Fraction of the cost of the stupid FIA parts, but work just as well. Hurst likee. (Still, anything you do, have him okay it first.)

We refill primarily from a drum pump. Kind of a pain in the ass. I know now that my pump delivers exactly 1 gal/6 revolutions. You fill it with steady medium speed cranks of the pump, else it will feed too fast against the toilet seat and back up and come right out the vent! Can fuel in a few minutes.

We made up a dump can lid for our Scribner cans with a short fill hose and a short vent hose for quick refills at gas splashes and in the new fuel depots so that we don't have to lug the drum in and out of the truck. No liftgate.

All in all, it's a bit of a pain, but I'm used to it now. I either back in to fuel or pull alongside the truck after service is done if room...unless we have to use a fuel depot.

Considering a gas caddy or just a decent drum dolly for moving drums around at rallies now with the depots.

Downside (other than the obvious PITA aspect)...no adding gas at a local gas station!

It was this or add a bulkhead with a window in it. I hate driving pickup trucks. Ain't gonna turn my rally car's cockpit into one.

Good luck. And MaxAttack!

Lurch

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Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan

Oh yeah. Where the hose has to pass thru the side of the oval filler box, I used these:


http://www.sealsit.com/firewall.asp

Wires ran thru a milcon from PRS...expensive bugger to get enough contacts to run 2 lift pumps and 2 pressure pumps inside the cell. Haven't starved it yet, tho.

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Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan

If you seal the red box, and have the pumps separately sealed of, and then use a BIG AN bulkhead fitting, with BIG an hose (the big hose looking thing) going to the OUTSIDE of the car, does this count as being sealed off?

Does this make sense?

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.