Anti- Sub belt and seat question

So.. conclusion.. I will be cutting a hole in my seat, which yes is a hard shell, and mounting that belt right proper.. I will be adding edging and properly finishing the hole... hell all my training in composite construction should be useful for something right? I can cut holes in the hulls of 4 million dollar boats and they survive... ;-)

you know John as you said there is no chance of submarining in a "properly snug" 4 point.. well in a properly driven car we shouldn't be crashing either but you know some of us are sub-god like and make mistakes... least of which could be a not quite snug enough belt system...

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DexterVW
you know John as you said there is no chance of submarining in a "properly snug" 4 point.. well in a properly driven car we shouldn't be crashing either but you know some of us are sub-god like and make mistakes... least of which could be a not quite snug enough belt system...

What an absurd reduction of logic and lame attempt at slagging having nothing to do with the suggestion which was DO WHAT YOU WANT but be aware of why you are doing it.

Who could possibly argue with that?

Except guys who just want to argue.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I've seen the fifth point run over the front of the seat in cars before.
I'd be hesitant to cut a seat. It will void certification, which isn't currently required in the US anyhow, but okay.
If you are cutting it, don't overdo it!

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Grant Hughes

You said a lot more than "Do what you want". Don't ignore the rest of it because that one sentence absolves you from having to support yourself.

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TronDD
You're the one using incorrect comparisons and annecdotes (or lake there of) to support your decision.

Something fishy in your critique.

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In this case, the anti-sub belt is there, even if it's a one in a million chance it will ever be needed, why not use it?

Why not? Sure. Why not. I said I don't and have hit things, LOTS of my friends have hit trees at a lot faster speeds than anybody responding here wearing proper 4 point harnesses...

One in a million chance? How many "Acme Heavy Duty Industrial Strength Prophylactics" do you boys wrap your massive members in when playing bouncy bouncy.. There's a greater than one-in-a-million chance of one breaking in the typical play session of 6.4 minutes. So do you wear 4?
If you last for an hour---do you wear 8?

And I dare not ask what harnesses you wear while in bed playing bouncy bouncy. There is in fact a greater than 1 in a million chance of dying by falling out of bed....while sleeping. Gawd knows the chances while bouncing around vigorously, and distracted by worry about one of the "Acme Heavy Duty Industrial Strength Prophylactics" breaking from the abuse it is sustaining.
310,000,000 in USA--about 450 per year DIE! falling out of bed. THOUSANDS! injured.
http://www.cwimedical.com/content/death-from-bed-falls

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>
Falling out of bed kills 450 people annually in the U.S.
According to the Center for Disease Control, falling out of bed accounts for 1.8 million emergency room visits and over 400 thousand hospital admissions each year. The very young and the very old are most at risk, and with decreased stability as we age, people over the age of 65 tend to fare the worst when falling.

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At least it didn't cost you $600 like a HANS.

But sawing a hole in a fiberglass seat might cost you.....

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They didn't create anti-sub systems out of nothing.
Tim.

Right. they are an absolute must as I said for thoise that lay down while driving, and who have--with only a few boring flat smooth corners, an elevated chance of falling asleep, hitting things and sliding out, and waking up dead.

All theoretical.
Name one person in a rally car that has slid under.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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NoCoast
I've seen the fifth point run over the front of the seat in cars before.
I'd be hesitant to cut a seat. It will void certification, which isn't currently required in the US anyhow, but okay.
If you are cutting it, don't overdo it!

You ain't half dumb Grant.

(Anything arrive in the mail?---Did you get the email or too hip to answer?)

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Ignoring the annecdote, request for annecdotes, and irrelivant analogy to refute my admitedly off the cuff justification...as I get no joy from interweb argumentz lolz

Is there no value in "theory"? Even if not one single rally racer has experienced submarining does it mean it's not a risk? How many people for how many years didn't use them? May be a fair sample set, but since not many don't use anti-sub anymore, new data can no longer be gathered.

Also curious, if there were injuries due to subarining in rally, would that data even exist for us to find? John, I know you have been vocal (when haven't you? ) about the lack of accident data in the sport.

Tim.

Everyone is going on about (and John seems to be staking his entire argument on) the 5th point keeping you from sliding out from under the lap belt. That's mainly a concern with an open wheel or prototype car where there is a very reclined seating position. But there is another, just as important reason for the 5th or 6th points that everyone seems to be overlooking. It's to keep the lap belt in the proper position. Otherwise the tightening the shoulder belts will tend to lift the lap belt up to high where it can cause internal organ damage in a severe impact. In a car with an upright seating position (where John is correct, submarining is not really a concern) the crotch strap is more to keep the lap belt in position around your pelvis.

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Doivi Clarkinen
Everyone is going on about (and John seems to be staking his entire argument on) the 5th point keeping you from sliding out from under the lap belt. That's mainly a concern with an open wheel or prototype car where there is a very reclined seating position. But there is another, just as important reason for the 5th or 6th points that everyone seems to be overlooking. It's to keep the lap belt in the proper position. Otherwise the tightening the shoulder belts will tend to lift the lap belt up to high where it can cause internal organ damage in a severe impact. In a car with an upright seating position (where John is correct, submarining is not really a concern) the crotch strap is more to keep the lap belt in position around your pelvis.

That was what I was stressing with the reference to reclining like at the beach, and the higher danger of nodding off to sleep when there's only a few boring turns that lulls you.
And yeah, if people have no clue and don't snug the lap belt in the correct position and just keep jerking on the shoulder belts till the buckle is like an big outie belly button, or resting on top of their ample belly the anti-sub 5th/6th position can help Eisteinenen position the lap belt---hence the reference to if a person actually has a lap---as many no longer do...
That part of the thing wasn't overlooked, it was pre-presumed that people know how to sit and how to adjust the lap belt, or that somebody would help them get that correct....

The one in a million chance "logic" is not a rational basis for any panic, letter writing and general forum bullshit of "How could you say that!!!!"
May as well just scream "THINK of the CHILDREN!!!!!!"
The huge figure for people dying in falling out of bed, and the chance of an Industrial Strength Condom bursting are far more likely so
WHERE's THE OUTRAGE!!!

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

The "one in a million" was the exact opposite of how you just desrcibed it. No panic, no screaming, no exclamation points. It was more of a, the belt is already part of the mandated harness, what is the down side to using it if it could theoretically help?

How can it be said that submarining is not a conscern in an upright position when the tests showed quite clearly that it happens? Goes back to my last question about the value of theory.

Tim.

Call me crazy, but I'd just spend $5 more than the 5-points and get these:

6-point



Oh, the huge manatee!

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Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

I HATE the G-Force belts.
I'm spoiled with some ridiculous Sabelts with light weight adjusters that were like 400 or so per set that I got for cheap and now are used and I'm like a little spoiled bitch about belts. Of course, I'm also ignoring the fact I have to buy more and have to spend money and will just buy the G-Force FIA 6 point when time comes.
Sorry John. Been a crazy week for me. Big presentation to American Statistical Society today that basically meant finishing my analysis for my thesis to prepare. No box has arrived yet but I'll send some dough or a fainting goat or something ASAP! And by ASAP I mean probably on Monday unless you got Paypal and want that instead of a check.

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Grant Hughes

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fiasco
Call me crazy, but I'd just spend $5 more than the 5-points and get these:

6-point



Oh, the huge manatee!

Looks more like a huge spider-ry

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Got g-force in the bimmer (and had in the colts) and takata in chuck's evo. Have used sabelt in the past. Love the g-force - nice and supple and easy to adjust. And best price hands down.

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"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain