Anti- Sub belt and seat question

Submarining, in it's most extreme, occurs when you slide under the lap belt as fatally happened to Jochen Rindt at the 1970 Monza GP when he deliberately decided not to wear the crotch straps, as he preferred to be able to get out of the car fast in case of fire.

A more accurate definition of submarining includes any incident where the lap belt slips off the pelvis and into the soft abdomen.

In a typical 30 mph (48 km/h) laboratory frontal barrier impact test against a flat wall, it is common to see a 30 g deceleration in the occupant compartment. Stiffer vehicles like full-framed pickup trucks, or solid little bricks like a Smart car with no crush space, could see upwards of 70 g. But let's stick with just a mild 30 g for now.

F = m x a
Force equals mass times acceleration.

If you weigh 150 lbs, a 30 g deceleration requires 4500 lbs force to restrain you.
If you weigh 200 lbs, 6000 lbs is required to restrain you at the same 30 g deceleration.

Obviously those kinds of loads can do a lot of damage to your body, and it is essential that those loads be transferred to bone structures capable of absorbing those loads without being crushed.

If you wear only a lap belt and have it positioned across your soft belly, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to picture how your soft internal organs will be squished between the belt and your spine. If you're really lucky, the belt will stop at your spine without ripping that out too.

It is vitally important that the lap belt ALWAYS stays low on your pelvis, hooked below the iliac crests.

Submarining can and often does occur even if the occupant is sitting upright to begin with, and even if the occupant pitches forward from the waist. Your legs themselves form a large part of your body mass. At impact the g-force acting on the legs tend to pull on and rotate the pelvis, which can further allow the lap belt to slip up into the soft abdomen.

One of the (very few) advantages of an OEM 3-point belt system is the sliding buckle that allows the webbing to move through the buckle. As the upper torso pitches forward, the increased load on the shoulder portion of the belt tends to tighten the lap belt helping to cinch it snug down onto the pelvis.

Another advantage is that the OEM 3-point shoulder belt, and lap belt, loads are each directed to the inboard mounted buckle and from there to the anchor. A racing harness, however, has the buckle centrally mounted. The substantial shoulder belt loads pulling up on the middle of the lap belt further increase the probability of submarining.

Anti-submarining straps are there to counter the upward pull of the shoulder belts to ensure the lap belt securely stays low on the pelvis. As that is their purpose, the anti-sub belts should be routed straight down, in the opposite direction of the shoulder belts.

Angling the anti-sub straps forward over the leading edge of the seat, especially if there is compressible seat padding involved, is a BAD idea.

Choosing not to wear the anti-sub straps, if you have them available, is beyond stupid.

Thanks for the description Ferdinand.

Safety gear is not the thing to leave out, or not utilize. Bitch about a HANS all you want, I KNOW they are effective, from experience. Physics dictates that the anti sub belt is benneficial to the belt system.

Thanks Ferd. I think I'm going to go back to riding a scooter again after reading that...

---

Grant Hughes

This whole "discussion' is really beyond silly. Of course 5th/6th points CAN give additional safety.
But there has been no good argument presented that it is do---OR DIE.
Presumptions, and assertions do not mean a logical argument has been presented.
We do not typically ram into sold walls.
We do not recline in the seat.
Truisms are not 'data'.
We are not running into things at 150mph--while nearly laying down.

Use your 5th/6th points if you desire, and believe that they will save your life but learn to refer to the real world occasionally.

And still nobody has named one person that they know slipped under the harnesses in a rally accident.....

Hasn't anybody here noticed that we mostly ROLL CARS OVER?

And Sean, there is a difference between knowledge and belief. You believe the HANS thing helped when you rammed the tree, but what are you comparing it to? Had you previously rammed a tree sideways without a HANS and injured your neck(s), then rammed it with, and not injured the neck, that would be knowledge. Knowledge based on experience, not presumption.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Wow. I have no words for how retarded John's advice was. Seriously dude?

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

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Dazed_Driver
Wow. I have no words for how retarded John's advice was. Seriously dude?

Timm, you know as well as I do that if we were all saying that crotch straps weren't really necessary then he would be calling us all idiots and explaining how wrong we were.

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Doivi Clarkinen

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Dazed_Driver
Wow. I have no words for how retarded John's advice was. Seriously dude?

Timm, you know as well as I do that if we were all saying that crotch straps weren't really necessary then he would be calling us all idiots and explaining how wrong we were.

Bullshit Dave, you talk too much bullshit.
Name one person you know in a rally car that has slipped under from lack of santi-submarine belt.
You can't.
So bite me with your contrariness explanation.

Timmy is stupid and has shown he cannot understand the simplest of concepts. So his comments are worth what they always have been---net negative: subtracting from the already limited amount of thinking in the world.

You ought to be able to understand the difference between the way people are painting the picture-- IT IS CERTAIN DEATH FROM SLIDING UNDER OH NOEZ---and suggesting that "we're all gonna die" is a knee jerk answer NOT BASED on what we do, and what we have seen since way back when we all had 4 point harnesses--and somehow survived.

So give us an example from your own experience instead of being a jerk.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Dave's not the one being a jerk... lmao.

You're a washed up tool. Get over yourself and realize your "advice" is going to kill someone someday.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

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john vanlandingham
Hasn't anybody here noticed that we mostly ROLL CARS OVER?

Perhaps the physics and force vectors are not obvious to everyone. In a frontal impact the shoulder belt restraint loads are directed rearward to the belt anchors. The tension in the webbing runs both ways though. If the belts aren't buckled up, obviously they'll just be dragged back over your shoulders. Both ends of the belts must be firmly anchored. In a racing harness that anchor is typically at the midpoint of the lap belt.

In any frontal impact, the potentially thousands of pounds belt tension is being supported simultaneously by the belt mounting points on the rollcage AND pulling upwards at the midpoint of the lap belt.

The force directions are much more obvious and easier to visualize in JVL's example of a rollover. Let's say you end up on your roof, simply hanging upside down in your harness. Clearly the shoulder belts are being suspended from the midpoint of your lap belt. There are large forces trying to pull that lap belt away from the seat. Now picture how much larger those loads would be when the car is not simply at rest on its roof, but when the vehicle is dropped onto its roof from some height...

The anti-submarining straps are there to hold the harness buckle into the seat to ensure that the belt can never ride up into your soft abdomen.

Someone else raised the example of the "asm" (anti-submarining) 4-point belts from SCHROTH. They make a big deal of their "energy converter" located in the inboard shoulder belt. It's basically just an extra couple of inches of webbing folded over and stitched into the belt. At a large enough belt tension, the stitching tears out and pops some extra slack into the belt. That allows the upper torso to pitch forward thereby hopefully ensuring the lap belt stays low on the pelvis to prevent submarining.

But what exactly is that extra slack in the belt supposed to do for you if your car is dropped from some height to land on its roof??? Or what if your car subsequently rolls over multiple times, with that extra slack in your shoulder belt, following an impact large enough to pop the stitching in the belt???

4-point belts are NOT a good design.

Read what SCHROTH themselves say in their "asm" description. Note carefully the first sentence of the second and third paragraphs. Source: http://english.schroth.com/racing/technology/asm.php

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SCHROTH
The SCHROTH asm® system offers an unique safety advantage for 4-point harnesses. asm® is the acronym for anti submarining. The risk to submarine (sliding underneath the lap belt), a well known phenomenon during frontal impacts, is significantly reduced by the asm® safety system. The energy converter is located in the inboard shoulder belt. Therefore make sure you purchase left and/or right harnesses.

Severe injuries or death are possible using 4-point harnesses without the SCHROTH asm® safety system or an anti-sub strap. SCHROTH harnesses designed for use on public roads (FE push button models) or those likely to be used as 4-points come with the asm® safety system. The performance of the SCHROTH asm® safety system has also been positively tested in conjunction with airbags. Current Head And Neck Supports (HANS®) provide further reduction of head deceleration and neck injury. All SCHROTH racing models likely to be used with any head and neck devices come without the asm® system.

Racing harnesses without asm® must be worn with an anti-sub strap!"

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Dazed_Driver
Dave's not the one being a jerk... lmao.

You're a washed up tool. Get over yourself and realize your "advice" is going to kill someone someday.

No Timmy, you're an idiot. Think what that means. TRY!
When you're an idiot, that means whatever you think is what is called "idiotic" and idiotic thoughts are nearly always wrong.
But idiots don't recognize that they are idiots, so as we see, virtually everything you write is stupid. Or just crying and whining about how much you hate working on cars.

So if you think I'm a washed up tool, then that has to be wrong because you thought it.
The advice isn't going to kill anybody because most people are herd animals and want recognition and praise so they say things---and do things--- with that as a major motivation..even if they're unconscious of their own motivations..so they're going to use their belts, all of them and be convince the 5th belt is whay they survives a light roll.

See if people could think better, they'd see there is a difference between in essence saying,
"I haven't---I've hit things, sure it's one more thing that yeas COULD (<---got that punk, could--you bright enough to know the difference between suggesting "could" and being a dumbfawk and blurting out "you're going get people killed?), but the record shows 10s of thousands of rally cars crashing where people just climbed out" so install them, the rules say you must, but don't obsess."
and
"We're all going to die, it's simple physics---see if you ram a Pickup into a solid wall....."


If they can't see there is a difference between doing things for reasons, not imagination, then that is more dangerous than not using a submarine belt, and when they come here to just whine and mumble bitter things, then we' are all in trouble.

Still nobody has named a driver they know who in a rally smacked something and slipped out from the belts.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Ferdy, I am talking about a way of thinking..Do you understand? A way of deciding about dangers--pluralis--dangers...
There's lots of them---hell you ride with Martin!
To the propaganda from whereever, yeah yeah whatever.

There are a million ways to die.
The question is what are the actual likelihoods of each.

And how much should we worry.

Way-of-thinking, Ferdy.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John, from one friend to another, stop talking.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

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john vanlandingham
how much should we worry?

When you buckle up your 4-point harness, do you always fasten BOTH shoulder belts? In a "mild rollover" surely just one shoulder belt would be enough. How much should you worry?

When you put on your helmet, do you always fasten the helmet strap? Jeez, back in the old days we didn't even bother wearing helmets at all. Why worry now?

Submarining is a serious threat in any crash scenario.

This discussion makes me think of Ashley Taws. See: http://www.racerchicks.com/racers/taws.html.



Ashley began racing karts when she was nine years old. She was twice Canadian Grand National Champion. At 15 she graduated to racing F1200. Talented, bright, attractive, and with a clever marketing strategy of driving a pink "Barbie" car, she made quite the name for herself finishing 2nd in the Ontario F1200 Championship.

When she was 18, she moved up to the highly competitive Canadian Formula Ford Championship, taking pole in front of the crowds at the 2002 Toronto Indy event then racing from dead last to fourth after her engine stalled a few laps into the race.

In December 2002 Ashley was severely injured in a traffic accident. She was riding in a friend's car. Being a racer, she always wore a seat belt. In fact she was the only one in the car wearing a seat belt. Unfortunately for her, Ashley was sitting in the centre of the rear seat with only a lap belt available. Her friends all escaped with minor injuries, whereas Ashely nearly died from the severe internal injuries received from the lap belt cutting into her abdomen.

Submarining is deadly serious, and is entirely preventable with a properly fitted harness using anti-submarining straps.

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Rallymech
John, from one friend to another, stop talking.

From a friend---stop beating this non-issue to death...

sorry you're focused on what you think the conclusion is when I'm talking about a way of thinking.. Poor thinking and poor reasoning is my subject.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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Ferdinand

Quote
john vanlandingham
how much should we worry?

When you buckle up your 4-point harness, do you always fasten BOTH shoulder belts? In a "mild rollover" surely just one shoulder belt would be enough. How much should you worry?

When you put on your helmet, do you always fasten the helmet strap? Jeez, back in the old days we didn't even bother wearing helmets at all. Why worry now?

Submarining is a serious threat in any crash scenario.

This discussion makes me think of Ashley Taws. See: http://www.racerchicks.com/racers/taws.html.



Ashley began racing karts when she was nine years old. She was twice Canadian Grand National Champion. At 15 she graduated to racing F1200. Talented, bright, attractive, and with a clever marketing strategy of driving a pink "Barbie" car, she made quite the name for herself finishing 2nd in the Ontario F1200 Championship.

When she was 18, she moved up to the highly competitive Canadian Formula Ford Championship, taking pole in front of the crowds at the 2002 Toronto Indy event then racing from dead last to fourth after her engine stalled a few laps into the race.

In December 2002 Ashley was severely injured in a traffic accident. She was riding in a friend's car. Being a racer, she always wore a seat belt. In fact she was the only one in the car wearing a seat belt. Unfortunately for her, Ashley was sitting in the centre of the rear seat with only a lap belt available. Her friends all escaped with minor injuries, whereas Ashely nearly died from the severe internal injuries received from the lap belt cutting into her abdomen.

Submarining is deadly serious, and is entirely preventable with a properly fitted harness using anti-submarining straps.

Again Ferdy, that has nothing to do with anything we do in the woods as tragic as it is.

Your black or white argumentation is not reasoning.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.