Best bang for your buck RWD 4 cylinder
Posted by mellow65
mellow65 Oliver Klozoff Mod Moderator Location: Oregon Join Date: 09/10/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 480 Rally Car: Nada |
What are some real world options for some 4 bangers out there? I'm not talking some exotic engine only found in some small town in Finland built by the rally gods themselves. I'm talking here in the states, real performance parts availability, nothing going to have to be one off kind of deal. But with that something that also has some real transmission options. Also anything in the carbed world maybe some side draft carb options.
Just brain storming right now, and I'm kind of drawing a blank at anything past a duratec maybe some older toyota or nissan stuff. "Rally racing makes a heroin addiction look like a vague craving for something salty" |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Elite Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Matt, you nail the most logic thing I can think of...Duratec..
LOTS of options for fairly cheap---$300 for a steel crank?? FAWK!!! $300 in 2013 is like $75 to me John Reed in Portland opted for the Toiletta 3GSE thing that I tried --in vain ---to interest the guys with Touiletta Commod-ahs in---and I was looking at the specs of the available versions.. Pretty gawddam impressive.. I had looked at it as simple core material to have a 25% increase in engine volume over the little tint 4AGE that make barely 100 hp and LESS than 100 ft/lbs cause I'm only aquainted wif the 3GSE as the great powerplant in All-Trac Celicas and they were good there, and reliable as well. The "Altezza" version in RWD application has good power, broad torue and PLENTY impressive torque in part from the stock 11. something to 1 compression and variable cams.. So I would at least think of reading about those.. Its older school, so its a lot heavier.. Old-er school, not old school like my Fords or Volvo big but like most stuff in late 80s... Duratec is maybe 80 lbs lighter. tHE tOILETTA STUFF DOES HAVE RWD GEARBOXES WITH GOOD RATIOS IF YOU COUNT THE 1ST AS "GOOD FOR DRIVING ONTO THE TRAILER) John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
mellow65 Oliver Klozoff Mod Moderator Location: Oregon Join Date: 09/10/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 480 Rally Car: Nada |
So with the duratec, where do I really even find good info I can peruse. I mean sure I could call you, but I have killed a battery on my phone once that way, and I just want some good reading material. I just have never been able to really find solid building information on them. I would love to read about different induction options, cams, pistons and things like that. But maybe they are just to new to really have good build info about them.
And then for trannys, other then the ranger 5 speed, the quads for rods t5 housing, what else is there? Can you use the miata 6 speeds? "Rally racing makes a heroin addiction look like a vague craving for something salty" |
BillyElliot Billy Elliot Mann Super Moderator Location: Royal Oak, MI Join Date: 08/11/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 557 Rally Car: 1996 Honda Civic with VTEC YO! |
Not really on the "cheap" side. But under $4000 gets you a JDM S2000 motor/ecu/trans which is 2.0L and good for 240hp and revs to 9000rpm. Not sure how much the 2.2L versions that make the same power but rev to 8000rpm are but I'm sure more because they are from newer models.
If there was an easy solution that didn't require a TSS level of fabrication to put an S2000 motor into a Honda chassis I'd be very interested. There's no real tie with any other manufacturer that I could toss the motor into. But there's also the BMW route for RWD options as well? |
mellow65 Oliver Klozoff Mod Moderator Location: Oregon Join Date: 09/10/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 480 Rally Car: Nada |
yeah but i have always heard horror stories of swapping the s2000 motors due to the electronics. And then when you swing over to stand along stuff you lose all the money honda spent on their ECUs to make them run awesome.
"Rally racing makes a heroin addiction look like a vague craving for something salty" |
phlat65 Sean Medcroft Elite Moderator Location: Edmonds, Washington Join Date: 02/12/2009 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,802 Rally Car: Building a Merkur |
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mellow65 Oliver Klozoff Mod Moderator Location: Oregon Join Date: 09/10/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 480 Rally Car: Nada |
I was watching horse power tv and they had they guys from eslinger engineering on there. They got something like mid 200s out of one of their 2.3s. but they are now offering a 3.1 stroker. And with them, they build all their stuff to spin at stupid revs and last. Cool company when you start looking into them.
"Rally racing makes a heroin addiction look like a vague craving for something salty" |
mellow65 Oliver Klozoff Mod Moderator Location: Oregon Join Date: 09/10/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 480 Rally Car: Nada |
If anyones interested in the show
http://www.powerblocktv.com/episodes/HP2012-16/building-a-competitive-dirt-track-engine they use some sexy parts in that engine. "Rally racing makes a heroin addiction look like a vague craving for something salty" |
Pete Pete Remner Junior Moderator Location: Cleveland, Ohio Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 2,022 |
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Pete Pete Remner Junior Moderator Location: Cleveland, Ohio Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 2,022 |
I posted info a little while ago, they got something like 400hp from one of their 3.1 engines. Pump gas. Mounted in a Mk1 Escort, from what I inferred, for street/trackday playing. Pete Remner Cleveland, Ohio 1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing) 1978 Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver. |
mekilljoydammit Super Moderator Join Date: 09/22/2010 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 336 Rally Car: No rally car yet |
Just talking about stuff that hasn't been covered.
I'd seriously consider a KA24DE in a 240SX; big stonking displacement, 89x96 bore/stroke, so reasonably decent potential for detonation resistance, 1.71:1 rod ratio stock. Heads flow something like 230cfm stock, or 280ish worked over. Jim Wolf Technologies has some pretty stonking cams available, internals are out there, and so on. It seems like it should be pretty mean if built even a bit, you know? Transmission ratios... screw it, bolt it to a T5. Also, there's comparatively lots of Nissan chassis to put them into. Nissan also has the SR20VE, but it's JDM y0. Basically their sorta VTEC thingie. FWD only motor, but it still bolts up to the RWD stuff. Or, not an I4, but Nissan has the VQ30DE in FWD form, I understand it can bolt to RWD stuff somehow (or use a T5 with adapters) and well, all aluminum 3L V6 isn't anything to sneeze at. The Miata (well, MX-5, whatever) gearbox has pretty decent ratios if you ignore 1st (ala the Toyota dealie) with an overall split from 2.26:1 to 0.832:1... except 4th is weird. Lessee... Toyota also has the RZ and TR truck engines that are pointing the right way if you're willing to do without having much existing stuff in the aftermarket. I imagine the AZ or AR engines from recent Camries and the like might be fun too if you are willing to standalone the suckers and adapt a T5. Too much reinventing the wheel though for my taste. Plus, RWD Toyota shells are thin on the ground. |
RDR Jay Anderson Infallible Moderator Location: Chicago, Il Join Date: 01/30/2013 Age: Settling Down Posts: 29 Rally Car: 1983 Toyota Celica |
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NoCoast Grant Hughes Elite Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
I have one of the modified Volvo heads sitting in the closet for a Ford 2.3. John posts pics of some Swedes that welded a bunch of aluminum onto it to get smaller combustion chamber I presume and higher compression ratio and and and, I think it was like 300 HP NA. Grant Hughes |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Elite Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
But notice n the website they don't put any prices on any of the truely interesting stuff. Also bear in mind all this crazy Ford 2300 things are made because the roundy round tracks or sanctioning bodys don't allow 16v things or easy head swap onto the Ford... So kinda like the sumb rule is Sweden for Grupp H which allows $7-8,000 100% after market 8v "Volvo" head, the insane, but beautiful Esslinger 8v thing is allowed, but a $100 Volvo 16v isn't.. Fortune has smiled on us so far in USA in that we can do easy things that they can't... Whatever the case, we talked about this a while back in reference to Nissans, it seems far smarter to look at things where thoe horriblest stuff is already done: head work...why start with a motor with a gross disgusting POS head then pay big straight machine shop time which is really expensive to port and big valve and work over chambers, when there are LOTS of motors which flow far more than we could ever hope for 20 years ago.. The Volvo 16 flows damn near what the Esslinger ARCA head flows and 25-28% more than their "direct bolt on" aluminum head flows. Stock... And that's good enough to get us into the "easy" and "probably enough gawddammit" range of 220-230 hp.. Talk of power more than that is lip-fapping as long as we buy our own tires. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
phlat65 Sean Medcroft Elite Moderator Location: Edmonds, Washington Join Date: 02/12/2009 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,802 Rally Car: Building a Merkur |
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