Best bang for your buck RWD 4 cylinder

Quote
john vanlandingham
But notice n the website they don't put any prices on any of the truely interesting stuff.

My guess is $30-50k for the full-cats Good Stuff, which seems to be the going rate for any top-level amateur circle track engine...

Quote

Also bear in mind all this crazy Ford 2300 things are made because the roundy round tracks or sanctioning bodys don't allow 16v things or easy head swap onto the Ford...

I'm fairly sure that multivalve engines are legal but the displacement breaks mean that an already well developed OHC 2-valve engine is where the sweet spot is.

Chevy recently introduced a purpose built pushrod 4-cylinder engine for this kind of racing. No, it ain't cheap, but they're trying to work into a niche. (They finally stuck the intake ports on the non-pushrod side, so they can shape and size them any way they want)

All this of course IS just a case of "what can you do". The point is that there are still a shitload of 2.3 Ford engines being raced in various classes so that means there are off the shelf rods/pistons/cranks/cams/EVERYTHING available, so you can determine what you can have by what your budget allows, not merely by what is available. Off the shelf means bang for your buck, no?

I mean, just because Pro Stock is running six-figure 1600hp big-block engines doesn't mean that you have to spend that much. We do a lot of $10-20k engines that make maybe half the power and people don't seem to complain

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2013 06:38PM by Pete.

Quote
mekilljoydammit
Just talking about stuff that hasn't been covered.

I'd seriously consider a KA24DE in a 240SX; big stonking displacement, 89x96 bore/stroke, so reasonably decent potential for detonation resistance, 1.71:1 rod ratio stock. Heads flow something like 230cfm stock, or 280ish worked over. Jim Wolf Technologies has some pretty stonking cams available, internals are out there, and so on. It seems like it should be pretty mean if built even a bit, you know? Transmission ratios... screw it, bolt it to a T5. Also, there's comparatively lots of Nissan chassis to put them into.

exsqueeze me, a baking powder, this is the first i have ever heard of this. do you have any info on this or was this a via the grape vine kind of thing?

---

"Rally racing makes a heroin addiction look like a vague craving for something salty"

Quote
john vanlandingham


So kinda like the sumb rule is Sweden for Grupp H which allows $7-8,000 100% after market 8v "Volvo" head, the insane, but beautiful Esslinger 8v thing is allowed, but a $100 Volvo 16v isn't..

Fortune has smiled on us so far in USA in that we can do easy things that they can't...

sure the head costs almost nothing, but what does it cost to actually get it to function on an engine?

---

"Rally racing makes a heroin addiction look like a vague craving for something salty"

Quote
mellow65

Quote
john vanlandingham


So kinda like the sumb rule is Sweden for Grupp H which allows $7-8,000 100% after market 8v "Volvo" head, the insane, but beautiful Esslinger 8v thing is allowed, but a $100 Volvo 16v isn't..

Fortune has smiled on us so far in USA in that we can do easy things that they can't...

sure the head costs almost nothing, but what does it cost to actually get it to function on an engine?

Old original way was to weld a block of aluminum on the back and feed the cam carrier oil..
I gort one for Sean M who is one smrat cookie and I suggested we oughtter be able to finger out a way to BOLT ON the block---the heasd leavs a few water passages uncobvered..
Then once its bolted on you talk to "Pyro Pete" CT and either get his spacers and shit for the big rubber band of finger out the rubber band yourself.

Then if you want truly stoooopid power, you talk to me.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
mellow65
If anyones interested in the show

http://www.powerblocktv.com/episodes/HP2012-16/building-a-competitive-dirt-track-engine

they use some sexy parts in that engine.

Yeah it's a nice motor, but I'm guessing it's not cheap either...

Oh I'm sure. Their price list says their complete engines start at $7500

---

"Rally racing makes a heroin addiction look like a vague craving for something salty"

Quote
mellow65
Oh I'm sure. Their price list says their complete engines start at $7500

Yea, that gave me a case of the sads.

What part? 300zx has a T5.

Quote
phlat65
What part? 300zx has a T5.

I thought only the 280ZX Turbo had a T5.

You've got to be careful, Borg-Warner made T5s with all sorts of different bolt patterns and such, they're not exactly Legos. I think (but am not sure) that the 280ZX used a Ford bolt pattern but I don't know if the input was a goofy length... and then what other engines mate up to the L-series' bellhousing pattern?

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2013 07:44AM by Pete.

The thing with Esslinger or other 2.3 Ford engines is they have been around for decades. I would guess there are boxes of stuff collecting dust in mid-west garages and barns. A few CL requests might strike gold. Another ideas is the old iron Duke that saw duty as a very stout boat boat of 3 liter displacement. Pontiac Racing had a 300 hp racing version that is still available and raced in the ARCA series I believe. Not a top choice for me but doable. Chevy and Ford have been dukeing it our forever in the oval track world.

The newer crop of V-6 offerings from everyone are making big reliable power. 200-300 hp stock, capable of several hundred thousand miles of service. A lot of aluminum blocks and heads, light weight and most anything can be made to run with a little electron magic.

My 3S-GE was an ideal choice for me, but may not be for everyone. The electronics are a hurdle but that is my day job so that part was easy. Some parts cross over to US spec 3S engines, and others have to come from Japan only. Which means you won't find stuff in rally stores (junk yards) or even at your local parts house in small town USA. For me it just means I either have to plan ahead, or accept the fact that if something major breaks, that my event is likely over.

What I gained for my trouble was a roughly 210hp engine bone stock, nice power band, with a very sweet 6spd box (that has decent ratios) for under $2k. I could feasibly just get a second setup as a spare for less than some spend on machine work and custom bits building up a lesser engine. It also has some later model technology which I like to dabble with.

I have thought another fun RWD G2 car would be a Nissan 240 with the previously mentioned SR20-VE. I have tuned a couple of these engines and they are awesome as well. Would be a potent package, IMO.

At the power levels most 2wd guys are at, the more stock you can have things and be at the competitive level you desire, the better. Engines eventually break or wear out, and it is far less heart breaking when a stock one breaks and there is more in the junkyard where it came from, versus breaking something that you had all sorts of custom bits in and countless hours and dollars into building.

---

John Reed
John Reed Racing
www.johnreedracing.com
johnreedracing@gmail.com

Quote
mellow65

Quote
mekilljoydammit
Just talking about stuff that hasn't been covered.

I'd seriously consider a KA24DE in a 240SX; big stonking displacement, 89x96 bore/stroke, so reasonably decent potential for detonation resistance, 1.71:1 rod ratio stock. Heads flow something like 230cfm stock, or 280ish worked over. Jim Wolf Technologies has some pretty stonking cams available, internals are out there, and so on. It seems like it should be pretty mean if built even a bit, you know? Transmission ratios... screw it, bolt it to a T5. Also, there's comparatively lots of Nissan chassis to put them into.

exsqueeze me, a baking powder, this is the first i have ever heard of this. do you have any info on this or was this a via the grape vine kind of thing?

I don't have any use for it so haven't pursued it. There's a RWD transmission for the things though, and the T5 only needs to bolt to a plate. I don't know about specifics on lengths - I can't imagine it would be rocket surgery to either bolt an adapter plate on the end of the KA's bellhousing section, or bandsaw it off to the right length and weld an adapter plate on; either way is bound to be far cheaper than any other way of getting decent gear ratios. Longshot, I know the 280ZX Turbo cars had a T5, but don't know if the L series and KA would have the same bolt pattern.

As for the Nissan V6 on RWD things... yeah, but the RWD ones seem to all be over the G2 displacement limit, and have you ebayed the FWD 3L ones? Couple hundred bucks for an all aluminum DOHC V6 making 200ish horsepower stock (probably more with headers and a tune, whatever) seems like a good deal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2013 01:26PM by mekilljoydammit.

Quote
mellow65
Oh I'm sure. Their price list says their complete engines start at $7500

Yeah, I could almost build an entire competitive regional G2 car for that much.

Quote
John Reed
My 3S-GE was an ideal choice for me, but may not be for everyone. The electronics are a hurdle but that is my day job so that part was easy. Some parts cross over to US spec 3S engines, and others have to come from Japan only. Which means you won't find stuff in rally stores (junk yards) or even at your local parts house in small town USA. For me it just means I either have to plan ahead, or accept the fact that if something major breaks, that my event is likely over.

What I gained for my trouble was a roughly 210hp engine bone stock, nice power band, with a very sweet 6spd box (that has decent ratios) for under $2k. I could feasibly just get a second setup as a spare for less than some spend on machine work and custom bits building up a lesser engine. It also has some later model technology which I like to dabble with.

I have thought another fun RWD G2 car would be a Nissan 240 with the previously mentioned SR20-VE. I have tuned a couple of these engines and they are awesome as well. Would be a potent package, IMO.

At the power levels most 2wd guys are at, the more stock you can have things and be at the competitive level you desire, the better. Engines eventually break or wear out, and it is far less heart breaking when a stock one breaks and there is more in the junkyard where it came from, versus breaking something that you had all sorts of custom bits in and countless hours and dollars into building.

Kind if why I keep having this though for engine upgrades. Either do work and cam/rev my B16 or just stick a bone stock Type R motor in it and probably never have to touch it and only change the fluids. The only time I hear about Honda motors breaking is when people start opening them up and fucking with them.

Quote
BillyElliot

Quote
mellow65
Oh I'm sure. Their price list says their complete engines start at $7500

Yeah, I could almost build an entire competitive regional G2 car for that much.

oh I don't disagree with you, and that isn't what I was thinking as best bang for the buck either. I just have aspirations of having a pissed off DOHC motor someday ripping down the roads. I just like bench racing as much as the next guy, but don't know all there is about all the motors out there. So i like to pick peoples brains.

And for the v6s out there, I'm not a huge fan of v6s, not really sure why, just never have been. Maybe it's the fact I have never driven a car on a daily bases my whole life that was anything more then a 4 cylinder.

---

"Rally racing makes a heroin addiction look like a vague craving for something salty"

Quote
BillyElliot

Quote
mellow65
Oh I'm sure. Their price list says their complete engines start at $7500

Yeah, I could almost build an entire competitive regional G2 car for that much.

Quote
John Reed
My 3S-GE was an ideal choice for me, but may not be for everyone. The electronics are a hurdle but that is my day job so that part was easy. Some parts cross over to US spec 3S engines, and others have to come from Japan only. Which means you won't find stuff in rally stores (junk yards) or even at your local parts house in small town USA. For me it just means I either have to plan ahead, or accept the fact that if something major breaks, that my event is likely over.

What I gained for my trouble was a roughly 210hp engine bone stock, nice power band, with a very sweet 6spd box (that has decent ratios) for under $2k. I could feasibly just get a second setup as a spare for less than some spend on machine work and custom bits building up a lesser engine. It also has some later model technology which I like to dabble with.

I have thought another fun RWD G2 car would be a Nissan 240 with the previously mentioned SR20-VE. I have tuned a couple of these engines and they are awesome as well. Would be a potent package, IMO.

At the power levels most 2wd guys are at, the more stock you can have things and be at the competitive level you desire, the better. Engines eventually break or wear out, and it is far less heart breaking when a stock one breaks and there is more in the junkyard where it came from, versus breaking something that you had all sorts of custom bits in and countless hours and dollars into building.

Kind if why I keep having this though for engine upgrades. Either do work and cam/rev my B16 or just stick a bone stock Type R motor in it and probably never have to touch it and only change the fluids. The only time I hear about Honda motors breaking is when people start opening them up and fucking with them.

I have seen far too many guys mess with cams and other stuff on the Hondas and LOSE power over stock. They are really well engineered, love those engines. Granted if you are shooting for big power then of course you have to take steps to keep it together, increase efficiency and make it work right with big boost and such things but in the context of 2wd rally and the power we can actually use most of these "top shelf" OEM engines are really quite good for our needs without messing with them much.

The other thing to consider is naturally aspirated horsepower is the most expensive power you can buy. Power returned for dollars spent on cams, pistons, head porting and all that is going to be fairly small. Especially when a turbo guy can make that much power gain by sneezing on his boost controller. So N/A guys, it is in your budgets best interest to buy as much power as you can that has already been extracted by the OEMs.

Just my $0.02 but have been around this business for a long time and have seen a lot of money, hopes and dreams wasted chasing after a "number" instead of looking at the big picture of what you are trying to do with the car.

---

John Reed
John Reed Racing
www.johnreedracing.com
johnreedracing@gmail.com