Best bang for your buck RWD 4 cylinder

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mellow65
oh I don't disagree with you, and that isn't what I was thinking as best bang for the buck either. I just have aspirations of having a pissed off DOHC motor someday ripping down the roads. I just like bench racing as much as the next guy, but don't know all there is about all the motors out there. So i like to pick peoples brains.

And for the v6s out there, I'm not a huge fan of v6s, not really sure why, just never have been. Maybe it's the fact I have never driven a car on a daily bases my whole life that was anything more then a 4 cylinder.

I know, I would love to have some hot Honda motor that rev's to 9-10k all day and makes 300+ crank HP but I never can see spending the tens of thousands of dollars on it. But my ideal motor is 200 at the crank.

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John Reed
I have seen far too many guys mess with cams and other stuff on the Hondas and LOSE power over stock. They are really well engineered, love those engines. Granted if you are shooting for big power then of course you have to take steps to keep it together, increase efficiency and make it work right with big boost and such things but in the context of 2wd rally and the power we can actually use most of these "top shelf" OEM engines are really quite good for our needs without messing with them much.

The other thing to consider is naturally aspirated horsepower is the most expensive power you can buy. Power returned for dollars spent on cams, pistons, head porting and all that is going to be fairly small. Especially when a turbo guy can make that much power gain by sneezing on his boost controller. So N/A guys, it is in your budgets best interest to buy as much power as you can that has already been extracted by the OEMs.

Just my $0.02 but have been around this business for a long time and have seen a lot of money, hopes and dreams wasted chasing after a "number" instead of looking at the big picture of what you are trying to do with the car.

Which is if RA and NASA ever just come to a realization that G2/G5 or O2L/O2H is dumb and just score 2WD together I would slap a turbo on my B16 much quicker than putting in an OEM Type R motor in my car. I could get the same power MORE torque AND still be just as reliable for less dollars. RA should just score 2WD at regional level, NASA just get rid of O2L/O2H and call it O2WD. The only reason I am in G2 right now is that's where the competition numbers are. I don't want to enter an event and only race against 2-3 other guys.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2013 05:09PM by BillyElliot.

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BillyElliot

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mellow65
oh I don't disagree with you, and that isn't what I was thinking as best bang for the buck either. I just have aspirations of having a pissed off DOHC motor someday ripping down the roads. I just like bench racing as much as the next guy, but don't know all there is about all the motors out there. So i like to pick peoples brains.

And for the v6s out there, I'm not a huge fan of v6s, not really sure why, just never have been. Maybe it's the fact I have never driven a car on a daily bases my whole life that was anything more then a 4 cylinder.

I know, I would love to have some hot Honda motor that rev's to 9-10k all day and makes 300+ crank HP but I never can see spending the tens of thousands of dollars on it. But my ideal motor is 200 at the crank.

You really don't even need that much power assuming you can keep the car light. I think something like the 3S-GE or the s2000 has plenty of power out of the gate to get a lightweight car flying down the road.

I would still love to do some reading on duratec builds. I think there is a lot of potential in those engines, I mean look at what Caterham. They get mid 200 hp out of them and they put them in the flee weight cars. They also have some 6 speeds and 5 speeds and sequential boxes they put behind them too.

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"Rally racing makes a heroin addiction look like a vague craving for something salty"

I don't understand why they don't just combine G2 and G5 for the regional guys. Make the class bigger/deeper and I for one would much rather just turbo my car if I feel I need more power to be competitive than any other path I have available to me in G2 (due to cost). I don't even want to think about what 100 extra hp would cost me in G2, but it would be fairly cost effective if I went turbo and G5.

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John Reed
John Reed Racing
www.johnreedracing.com
johnreedracing@gmail.com

The smartest people in rally have 80 HP and do 10+events a year and beat 90% of the field. Seat time trumps credit line.

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Grant Hughes

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NoCoast
The smartest people in rally have 80 HP and do 10+events a year and beat 90% of the field. Seat time trumps credit line.

I can't even name anyone that falls within that category. I know it's hypothetical and all but those numbers need to be in the 125hp range and 3-5 event range really. But it's still mostly true where in rally it's not so much about your car prep as it is about the driver/co-driver and their experience on the events.

Don't know what planets all you boys live on---that's clear enough---but my overall placing were steadily related to the Bee haitch Peas my car had---except near the very end..

More pop, more higher placing.

Of corse already had a proper close ratio box, 5.83 final drive and all steel clutch plate LSD a year before first event---at least that was a constant in the equation..

Why do you suppose I suggest that folk choose cars with easy 175-200 hp?

_{(hint---becuase that is so much fun it sustains enthusiamn in-between the events and down times)}

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Mt. Hood this year, Charles and I did great in Adam's corolla (which he never drove before), having never driven together before, with slightly under 100hp at the wheels. I think we were a couple seconds off Reed overall for 1st in 2wd going into stage 6 before we had a DNF from a ignition loss.

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First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Yeah, I was underexaggerating power and overexaggerating event count.

I actually think there are two important things.
Drive the same car repeatedly.
Enter as many events of any kind without making drastic changes as you can.

I know too many people that NEVER really seemed to get any faster by getting better at driving because everytime they did an event they had changed so much shit on the car. New turbo, different this, different that, etc. The car is never the same so they never even get close to approaching the limits of the car so then when it becomes faster, they are still the same shitty driver, only now with a too fast car.

Adam Crane is the first one to come to mind as a perfect example of what every new driver should do. Build a simple but good car (build pics of his 4 link/shock towers should convince anyone they can do the same), and go drive it hard. Fix stuff that breaks but don't worry about power, etc.

I know a certain team that already has bought a supercharger for their BMW 3.0L Compact in case they need a little more power to reach the top. Hill climbs? Sure, more power is great. Rallies? That car should be able to win 2WD overall with a good driver at pretty much every event, no need for supercharger.

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Grant Hughes

That's why I'm sticking with my current setup. I keep looking at putting cams on the motor, but then if I do that I might as well replace the valve springs and run some ARP rod bolts to give it a few more revs. At that point, I'm spending half as much for an upgraded motor. So fuck all that, I'm just going to go race and keep my right foot down longer.

Wyatt said it best to me at 100AW back in 2011. He asked me if I know those times you go into a turn a little too hot and go, "OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT" but somehow you pull it off, the car hooks up and you pull off the turn with such speed you're amazed you even pulled it of... but now you have to do that for EVERY turn. THAT is when you know you need to start looking into upgrading your car because the car is the limiting factor for you at that point. Everything else before that is driver limited.

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BillyElliot
THAT is when you know you need to start looking into upgrading your car because the car is the limiting factor for you at that point. Everything else before that is driver limited.

The interesting thing is how many people don't ever comprehend that. They assume that they will be a god given the same resources as SRTUSA and they just can't catch that break that will get them there. You see the same attitude with many things... Oh, if I could just find that break, I would be a millionaire... Oh if I were just a little more lucky I'd be ______. It's almost never lucky, it's almost always hard work. Now, back to coding...

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Grant Hughes

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NoCoast
I know a certain team that already has bought a supercharger for their BMW 3.0L Compact in case they need a little more power to reach the top. Hill climbs? Sure, more power is great. Rallies? That car should be able to win 2WD overall with a good driver at pretty much every event, no need for supercharger.

Yep, that's why its still sitting in a box. Long term plans for the BMW are either a 3.2 N/A for a little more oomph or a light pressure blower. Stock 6-cyl BMW motor options range from from the 325i ~190hp/180tq & $1k for a full swap up to newer M3 at ~330/270 for around $6k. With a 6psi blower a stock 3.0L M3 engine 240/225 should bump to 360/300 non intercooled...not a bad pick up for $1250 IMO.

In my eyes, the N/A route makes more sense because of less complexity and fewer parts to break. If I end up not being able to travel the country, we've got some good hillclimbs locally and that'll increase the chance of trying out the blower...as would a full tire sponsorship, LOL. Have to say I've really been enjoying the fact that the BMW car can sit in negative temps and still fires on the 1st try...Evo has never been able to come close to doing that.

100% in agreement that seat time is the most important thing, so build it stout and reliable and go thrash. Just wished I'd not dug into so many details with the build and gotten it finished sooner, but I've certainly enjoyed beating the snot out of the car almost every weekend for the last 2 months.

Dave

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Gravity Fed
Mt. Hood this year, Charles and I did great in Adam's corolla (which he never drove before), having never driven together before, with slightly under 100hp at the wheels. I think we were a couple seconds off Reed overall for 1st in 2wd going into stage 6 before we had a DNF from a ignition loss.

That's in large part because of the folly of talking HORSE Power.
Adam's little 1600 has a Dana 30 from a 240 Volvo and in it is a 5.35 ring and pinion..
so whatever torque the little thing makes is multiplied by 5.35

weight around 2450lbs torque maybe 95 ft/lbs TIMES 5.35

that's why I push RWD cars so much---we can easily choose an axle that we can cheaply bang in a short final drive...

Some of the FWD guys can find a 4.2.... 5.35 is around 30% more torque multiplication

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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BillyElliot
Wyatt said it best to me at 100AW back in 2011. He asked me if I know those times you go into a turn a little too hot and go, "OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT" but somehow you pull it off, the car hooks up and you pull off the turn with such speed you're amazed you even pulled it of... but now you have to do that for EVERY turn. THAT is when you know you need to start looking into upgrading your car because the car is the limiting factor for you at that point. Everything else before that is driver limited.

Well said! I know I've had a good run at a hillclimb event when my hands are shaking at the top and had 3 or 4 of those moments...hard to comprehend that the pros likely have those moments on 80%+ of the corners and aren't phased by it. Gronholm probably says it best: "But ok." LOL

Dave

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DaveK
Yep, that's why its still sitting in a box. Long term plans for the BMW are either a 3.2 N/A for a little more oomph or a light pressure blower.
But I've certainly enjoyed beating the snot out of the car almost every weekend for the last 2 months.

Stop with this whole long term planning nonsense! Get out and drive the car in the short term (like you've been doing. )
Though I will say that I think here in Colorado we have a great justification for maybe aiming a touch higher for power levels than someone in PNW running just rallies. Elevation and the hill climb series kinda help justify it, but if it reduces reliability/serviceability you have to question it to some extent.

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Grant Hughes

One that runs and one you are fimilar with if your a drifter and love 240sx thats the
car you would get the bang for the buck from. If you grew up old mucle cars and have
them coming out your ears and know every part run that, shoebox nova with a v8 and
a dubble pumper who cares it about fun anyway. reminds me of the video floating
with the full sized falcon kicking some serous ass!

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