What have you been doing on.......

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AlexeiS

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NoCoast
Coilover with spring in stock location, hydraulic or weld on bump stop on chassis or spring perch. May take math to figure rate needed for stock location, but likely much cheaper than custom knuckle.

Very cool idea, I hadn't thought of that. The coilovers just have sleeves spot welded over them for the increased size, so I can try and remove those and go back to the stock knuckle. Thanks! I'll look into it first.

Edit: John, I'll post piccies when I work on the car sometime in a month or two. Agreed on the rear design. Only problem with extending the towers is the cage ties in, so even more mods

OK.
And do not listen to Grant. Grant is a "Statistician". That means he fucks off all day while computers grind numbers...and therefore thinks everything can be "discovered' on You Tube"..
Bad Grant, go build 10 more Subies and 17 more BMWs.

Sawz-alls can cut cage tubes and the car be re-welded into/onto the new tower--relatively easier than wasting weeks on the cramped, and very weakl stock junk and having in the end 4.25" total travel..

Do it right and you can have 190/200mm front AND rear, in effect allowing relatively soft "wheel rates" and so in effect make you car like a mini-World Rally Car--and utilise the "new long travel" for grip....and it doesn't go WHAM!!!! over jumps/bumps

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I have been building and racing mountain and bmx bikes too much! But both seasons are basically over now, for me at least.

Monday night I stuck the bike rack on the rally car and drove to my last mtb race, but about 4 miles up the mountain the rear brakes caught on fire. First time ever using a fire extinguisher which was awesome to breathe then go pound out 3000 feet of climbing and 16 miles. So redoing rear brakes is the project I get to start on Sunday. Woohoo. Better than at an event... I guess?

Navigating at a Tarmac Rally - Targa Adeliade

We scored a second in handicap and 3rd outright Classic. Good times!

retaining wall is finished.



now, just to wait for the concrete guy to do his thing, and then I can finally bring home the car I bought five months ago...

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

Nice wall, what is the cement guy doing? new slab?

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heymagic
Nice wall, what is the cement guy doing? new slab?

Yep, "RV pad" (ie. race car parking) on the side of the house. He actually did all the ground prep yesterday, so seems like it should be done real soon.

I'm just glad it's nearly done. Spent more than a month trying to get guys to even return our calls, let alone bid/quote the job. Just seeing the area cleared and leveled, it's going to be a big improvement (at least until it has another POS car sitting there ) over both the jungle that the original owner left, and the stumps & weeds that have occupied the area since I had my way with it.

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

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john vanlandingham
And do not listen to Grant. Grant is a "Statistician". That means he fucks off all day while computers grind numbers...and therefore thinks everything can be "discovered' on You Tube"..
Bad Grant, go build 10 more Subies and 17 more BMWs.

Sawz-alls can cut cage tubes and the car be re-welded into/onto the new tower--relatively easier than wasting weeks on the cramped, and very weakl stock junk and having in the end 4.25" total travel..

Do it right and you can have 190/200mm front AND rear, in effect allowing relatively soft "wheel rates" and so in effect make you car like a mini-World Rally Car--and utilise the "new long travel" for grip....and it doesn't go WHAM!!!! over jumps/bumps

So how is that going to keep him from bending shit left and right?
John, being a ... a machinist? a guy who builds things? A pseudo-engineer in practice? I assume you understand what a lever is?

So, let's say we have a semi trailing arm, kinda like on the Merkur with a seperate spring and shock. Now let's move the bump stop from the spring seat to the shock arm. What happens?
Two important things happen.
The impact of the bump stop is now focused on one spot. Upright, bolt, shock ear, top mount, single shear cast arm holding bottom, etc. Instead of being mostly on a big wide part of the body shell and an equally wide and well supported part of the semi trailing arm.
Secondly, we now have a huge levering action on the inner mount point of the STA. Well, probably both mount points of the STA, but at least what I have seen, both internationally on other rally cars and on my own car is that it really fucks the inner mount point.

So, basically, if you want to have a coilover on a car that usually has a seperate spring/strut, you will have to deal with this issue.
One way is to leave the spring and bump stop in the stock location. Another is to strengthen the fuck out of everything or build custom uprights or trailing arms/bearing carrier setups and shit that will work with it.

I know on the E36 multilink that some places even when they do a coilover leave the bumpstop in the stock location, and sometimes even put in an aftermarket one.

I spend very little time behind a computer these days. This was the first time on here not on a smart phone in a while, hence why I was finally able to respond.

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Grant Hughes

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NoCoast

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john vanlandingham
And do not listen to Grant. Grant is a "Statistician". That means he fucks off all day while computers grind numbers...and therefore thinks everything can be "discovered' on You Tube"..
Bad Grant, go build 10 more Subies and 17 more BMWs.

Sawz-alls can cut cage tubes and the car be re-welded into/onto the new tower--relatively easier than wasting weeks on the cramped, and very weakl stock junk and having in the end 4.25" total travel..

Do it right and you can have 190/200mm front AND rear, in effect allowing relatively soft "wheel rates" and so in effect make you car like a mini-World Rally Car--and utilise the "new long travel" for grip....and it doesn't go WHAM!!!! over jumps/bumps

So how is that going to keep him from bending shit left and right?
John, being a ... a machinist? a guy who builds things? A pseudo-engineer in practice? I assume you understand what a lever is?

So, let's say we have a semi trailing arm, kinda like on the Merkur with a seperate spring and shock. Now let's move the bump stop from the spring seat to the shock arm.(WTF are you saying? what's a "shock arm"?) What happens?
Two important things happen.
The impact of the bump stop is now focused on one spot. Upright, bolt, shock ear, top mount, single shear cast arm holding bottom, etc. Instead of being mostly on a big wide part of the body shell and an equally wide and well supported part of the semi trailing arm.
Secondly, we now have a huge levering action on the inner mount point of the STA. Well, probably both mount points of the STA, but at least what I have seen, both internationally on other rally cars and on my own car is that it really fucks the inner mount point. (What is this? You mean coils around a shock are going to stress mounts more?)

So, basically, if you want to have a coilover on a car that usually has a seperate spring/strut, you will have to deal with this issue.
One way is to leave the spring and bump stop in the stock location. Another is to strengthen the fuck out of everything or build custom uprights or trailing arms/bearing carrier setups and shit that will work with it.
(what car are you on about?)

I know on the E36 multilink that some places even when they do a coilover leave the bumpstop in the stock location, and sometimes even put in an aftermarket one. (a lot of people do a lot of very stupid things often because they sit around drinking beer and "brainstorm" as long as the beer lasts, I can't consider the 'set of possible dumb ways to do things and the set of possible inventive ratiocination of everybody. That's why I do one thing at a time...for example some people in their roll cages make near horisontal X from near the foot of the main hoop rearwards---that does not resolve any load or mitiagte against any forseeable force, yet they do it...I can't spend time why it seems reasonable to do that--it is clear at a glance it accomplishes nothing---time spent trying to backtrack and figure "Why would somebody do something so obviously pointless is time better spent reading a nice book)

I spend very little time behind a computer these days. This was the first time on here not on a smart phone in a while, hence why I was finally able to respond.

Grant you posting drunk? Or been smokin the spliff? What the fuck are you rambling about?
1) Have you seen the Suzuli/Metro rear suspension assembly?
[ ] Yes, intimately familiar, held, measured studied for hours
[ ] never even seen it much less touched it

I think we know the answer.
Edit you message so you point about the the Suzuli/Metro I was speaking of is clearer cause I have held, measured fought with the stuff and I have no idea what you are suggesting..

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Yes.
I'll draw you a picture later if I find time. PhD statistical theory class in 3 minutes...

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Grant Hughes

I seem to remember (JV, Dave??) the factory Japanese Suzuki team carrying a buttload of complete rear suspensions back in the Olympus days. Light little econoboxes that were never really designed to go over 60mph...

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heymagic
I seem to remember (JV, Dave??) the factory Japanese Suzuki team carrying a buttload of complete rear suspensions back in the Olympus days. Light little econoboxes that were never really designed to go over 60mph...

Don't doubt it at all, I wasn't paying attention then, was having my own fun..
The difference is they COULD homologate whatever they want, just build it, snap some photos, submit it and get a VO or whatever.

Pooor bastids with these little econoboxes never intended to go over 60* have spent their money getting multiple thousand dollar cages welded in, they're stuck with the things.

The question becomes not one of some theoretical exercise in misunderstanding the significance of things, but:
what can be done for how much using available materials and tools aka sheetmetal (super cheap) and MIG (available at better home garages everywhere) and a little time?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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NoCoast
Yes.
I'll draw you a picture later if I find time. PhD statistical theory class in 3 minutes...

Yes to what?
This is what worries me in your explanations and reasoning
Look, this is what was asked marked with numbers

Grant you posting drunk?1 Or been smokin the spliff?2 What the fuck are you rambling about?3
1) Have you seen the Suzuli/Metro rear suspension assembly?4
[ ] Yes, intimately familiar, held, measured studied for hours--5
[ ] never even seen it much less touched it --6
Last 2 being implied question.
6 questions


"Yes"

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

1) Have you seen the Suzuli/Metro rear suspension assembly?4
[ ] Yes, intimately familiar, held, measured studied for hours--5
[ ] never even seen it much less touched it --6

Yes, not intimately familiar, but familiar with the style of suspension. Assuming that the bump stop was on the spring and not on the shock in stock setup.
But most importantly, I am familiar with STA or multi-link suspension setups that have a seperate spring and shock. here's let's get 8 bit on this.

Hub----Shock------Outer Mount-------Spring-------------Inner Mount
^
|
Stock when you hit the bump stops it have a lever force right there, where the spring and bump stop is.

Hub----Shock------Outer Mount-------Spring-------------Inner Mount
^
|
Coilover, it is right here. Hence you often will bend stuff at the inner mount.

Also, the force of that bump stop is now transfered to wherever the shock is mounted to, hub or a custom welded on tab or stock BMW cast thing like Hintz broke, etc. Instead of a nice wide and flat spot on the arm.
Make some sense?

Regardless, the point is, guy has car, goes to coilover, starts bending uprights. Options - Go back to non-coilover or spend millions getting a custom upright that is stronger made. I simply suggested that he go with a stock spring or bump stop. Can even use coilover still Shit, he can even just put a secondary bumpstop on the spring seat to move some of that load away from the hub and that might be enough to stop bending shit left and right.

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Grant Hughes

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NoCoast
Also, the force of that bump stop is now transfered to wherever the shock is mounted to, hub or a custom welded on tab or stock BMW cast thing like Hintz broke, etc. Instead of a nice wide and flat spot on the arm.
Make some sense?

Just to add an additional 'i read this on the interwebz':

Rumor was some of the E30 guys (remember same rear end as compact) were actually bending the RTAs when running stocklike springs in the OEM location. Sounded like they were essentially coil binding the spring and the outer end of the arm (hub/wheel/etc.) kept moving some.

I think in my case the extra long progressive bumpstops on the shocks is helping some...but if I ever wanted to build a baja version...I'd certainly look at doing it differently.

In terms of standard E36 rear end...the red car needs something more to be "truly good" IMO, it bottoms out way too easily in the current configuration. Not sure what the answer is yet, but have more pressing issues with the motor at the moment.

Dave

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DaveK
Just to add an additional 'i read this on the interwebz':

I've bent two rear beams on the Merkur, both times on the inner mount.
There's a Compact rally guy in the UK that has bent a few using AST dampers and can't figure out why.

The bending RTA when the coils are fully compressed would make sense.
I think I suggested once that we could make a little special hole and just have a hydraulic bump stop that hits the spring seat and still use a coilover for the E36 multilink but hopefully keep that shock force off that single shear bolt that holds the bottom. Of course, gotta work harder to afford silly wasteful shit like that. Should just rally a VW with all this damn working on cars that comes with your BMWs.

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Grant Hughes