RX-3

Quote
Pete
!!!

Did someone bung a complete Escort/Capri front suspension in that thing? Far out.

No, somebody thought about something like a Escort or Capri, only more common and current..

So begins with a Vo and ends in a vo..
Front struts, hubs , discs, rack and pinion etc, rear axle/brakes....and evidently lower link/spring pan thing...

iddnit amazink way back more than 20 years ago someone was thinking of how to make cars better and sustainable...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2014 06:54PM by john vanlandingham.

What Volvo used the sway bar as a stressed member? I thought only Ford was silly enough to do that. (Well, Ford and Mazda. And Saturn. And Chrysler used transverse torsion bars to locate TCAs in the 70s redesign of the B-body, and allegedly some engineers quit the company after being forced to make that crap)

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Quote
Pete
Depends on what is considered to be "forever". The chrome on the older rotor housings is not quite so good, getting worse the further back you go. The housings that were "passably good" in my current engine 30,000mi ago are now missing about a quarter of the chrome. ('84-85 13B rotor housings) The compression is uneven, and I have a persistent problem with the springs wearing into the backside of the apex seals causing poor compression long before the seals themselves are worn out. This is with OEM 3mm iron and aftermarket 2mm steel seals, haven't dared to try the carbon-aluminum seals yet.

Well, I'm just hoping it's in good shape. I'll check back here with pics when I get to the engine dismantling. I'm still just trying to come up to speed on how the engine works. The carbs feed into the side and middle housings, which I guess are referred to as irons. I gather that Rick Engman's magic is mostly in porting those, with a "street port", which may or may not be a bridge port. If so, then if the chrome is toast, can I keep those end pieces and just get 84-85 housings, port their exhausts to match the current porting, replace the seals and go?

The other thing I'm wondering is if I can ditch the current points/vaccuum-advance distributor and go with an electronic one off an early 80s car. Points and igniters seem to be sort of hard to find. Maybe an MSD ignition system?

I don't know exactly where the magic is, although apparently Rick's still around somewhere in Atlanta, so I should drop him a line and find out what he has to say.

Anyway, that stuff's a ways out yet.


As for the front suspension, if it's worked for all these years I guess I don't want to mess with it too much. My concern is that if I bend the current control arm/swaybar I'll never find a replacement. I'll go have a looksee at how Volvo A-arms are mounted and their lengths and stuff; it might be possible to just use those and replace the Mazda ones. If not, I guess I'll see about fabricating a new arm as a spare, ideally as a combo with a swaybar from something else easy to find.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

Quote
Pete
What Volvo used the sway bar as a stressed member? I thought only Ford was silly enough to do that. (Well, Ford and Mazda. And Saturn. And Chrysler used transverse torsion bars to locate TCAs in the 70s redesign of the B-body, and allegedly some engineers quit the company after being forced to make that crap)

And Audi and Opel, and the list goes on and on and on.

In this case it's the RX-3 sway bar and lower control arms mated to the Volvo struts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2014 03:30AM by Doivi Clarkinen.

Quote
Pete

Quote
Doivi Clarkinen
Don't throw that engine away, just freshen it up if it needs it. (It may not, rotaries last forever if properly cared for.)

Depends on what is considered to be "forever". The chrome on the older rotor housings is not quite so good, getting worse the further back you go. The housings that were "passably good" in my current engine 30,000mi ago are now missing about a quarter of the chrome. ('84-85 13B rotor housings) The compression is uneven, and I have a persistent problem with the springs wearing into the backside of the apex seals causing poor compression long before the seals themselves are worn out. This is with OEM 3mm iron and aftermarket 2mm steel seals, haven't dared to try the carbon-aluminum seals yet.

At least I have mostly solved the severe side housing wear problem. All the same, I seem to only get a season out of an engine before it's rebuild time.

I admit to some hyperbole, though I remember guys getting 5-10 years out of rotary rally motors without doing anything to them. (Gene, back me up on this.) Dave Hintz had the engine rebuilt in his RX-7 Turbo II in 1999 when it was still a street car. We built it into a rally car that year and he drove the piss out of it. 15 years and two owners later the car is still competing with that same motor, it's never been out of the car that whole time. And that's a turbo motor...

Quote
hoche



As for the front suspension, if it's worked for all these years I guess I don't want to mess with it too much. My concern is that if I bend the current control arm/swaybar I'll never find a replacement. I'll go have a looksee at how Volvo A-arms are mounted and their lengths and stuff; it might be possible to just use those and replace the Mazda ones. If not, I guess I'll see about fabricating a new arm as a spare, ideally as a combo with a swaybar from something else easy to find.

You could just ditch the sway bar and go full on Mk 2 Escort with compression struts. It would be pretty easy to do. I'm sure JV could point you to a book with more detailed info on this.

You could do something like this:

https://technotoytuning.com/toyota/kp61/front-suspension-conversion-swaybar-kp60-kp61-starlet

The Toyota Starlet had the same design front suspension. Its a copy and re-design of a Ford Escort kit from the UK. He makes some RX specific parts too.

---

www.performanceoptions.net

The early 2 dizzy motors where really bad for the chrome peeling I think. We used single dizzy Japanese used crate motors and Doug Moe ported those with good success . I lost bearings on one but that was it. Lots of stage miles, lots of 9000plus revs and no failures. Of course those motors are now 30 years older. I used the stock distributor and Datsun ignition modules. They were cheap at the wrecking yard. Seems like we used the Ford Duraspark ?? module s on one also. But that could be incorrect, might have been a different car.

Quote
Doivi Clarkinen

Quote
Pete

Quote
Doivi Clarkinen
Don't throw that engine away, just freshen it up if it needs it. (It may not, rotaries last forever if properly cared for.)

Depends on what is considered to be "forever". The chrome on the older rotor housings is not quite so good, getting worse the further back you go. The housings that were "passably good" in my current engine 30,000mi ago are now missing about a quarter of the chrome. ('84-85 13B rotor housings) The compression is uneven, and I have a persistent problem with the springs wearing into the backside of the apex seals causing poor compression long before the seals themselves are worn out. This is with OEM 3mm iron and aftermarket 2mm steel seals, haven't dared to try the carbon-aluminum seals yet.

At least I have mostly solved the severe side housing wear problem. All the same, I seem to only get a season out of an engine before it's rebuild time.

I admit to some hyperbole, though I remember guys getting 5-10 years out of rotary rally motors without doing anything to them. (Gene, back me up on this.) Dave Hintz had the engine rebuilt in his RX-7 Turbo II in 1999 when it was still a street car. We built it into a rally car that year and he drove the piss out of it. 15 years and two owners later the car is still competing with that same motor, it's never been out of the car that whole time. And that's a turbo motor...

Quote
hoche
Well, I'm just hoping it's in good shape. I'll check back here with pics when I get to the engine dismantling. I'm still just trying to come up to speed on how the engine works. The carbs feed into the side and middle housings, which I guess are referred to as irons. I gather that Rick Engman's magic is mostly in porting those, with a "street port", which may or may not be a bridge port. If so, then if the chrome is toast, can I keep those end pieces and just get 84-85 housings, port their exhausts to match the current porting, replace the seals and go?

Street port is just a little bigger than stock. A "bridge" port is so big that a bridge of metal has to be left in the intake port to keep the seals from falling out as they go by. It's the difference between a 270 degree cam and a 400 degree cam. (Bridge ports idle... distinctively) And of course there are different variations and such. But if they say it's a street port, then it's a street port.

If the chrome is toast, it depends on what engine you have. (I forgot already. My short term memory sucks so bad I have to reread a phone number three times while dialing it) If you have a 12A, your options are used or nothing. If you have a 13B (and I do remember that your intake manifold has the '74-85 4 port bolt pattern) then GSL-SE are your ONLY option nowadays. And they look to be pretty cheap as far as rotor housings go, $500 from Mazdatrix.

Of course, if you have a 12A that needs rotor housings, the rotors are probably also junk, and if you need rotors AND rotor housings then you might as well get GSL-SE rotor housings and oil pan, rotating assembly from an '86-up carand oil pan, new intake manifold, and cut/reweld the header to fit the new engine. Which is exactly what I did when I couldn't find 12A parts anymore.

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2014 06:35PM by Pete.

It's definitely a 13B. Alex Staidle says it's an early one, but I have no idea how he identified it as such.

That Starlet kit looks interesting. Looks like it'd be pretty straighforward to fabricate something similar, although I'd have to make sure it cleared the tie-rods. For a RWD car, is there any advantage to a trailing link vs a leading link on the front suspension?

Another thing I was wondering about: this thing's currently set up with a massive amount of negative camber in the front. Is there a reason for that?

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

Quote
hoche
It's definitely a 13B. Alex Staidle says it's an early one, but I have no idea how he identified it as such.

That Starlet kit looks interesting. Looks like it'd be pretty straighforward to fabricate something similar, although I'd have to make sure it cleared the tie-rods. For a RWD car, is there any advantage to a trailing link vs a leading link on the front suspension?

Another thing I was wondering about: this thing's currently set up with a massive amount of negative camber in the front. Is there a reason for that?

Big negative camber was old school thinking. Paul Morgan probably set it up that way. Modern rally tires are much stiffer and you don't really need that much camber but no big deal.

I bet a compression strut kit for a Mk. 1 or 2 Escort like the one I linked would go right into those Mazda control arms, they look really similar. Maybe the compression strut needs to be a different length but it's easy to fab. With a compression or tension strut you've essentially got a wide base a-arm now. Much sturdier than relying on the sway bar brackets and bushings to locate the wheel. You're gonna get more movement there. Compression strut would be easier to do and not interfere with steering.

The Mk2 Escort Compression strut idea looks like a champ. I'll have to do some measurements to find a good mounting spot where the wheel won't hit it at full lock. I'll get back to you all on that.

Found Rick Engman. Didn't talk to him, but talked to his front office guy. He's still building engines, but it sounds like it's mostly for historic-valued high-end stuff like 787s. It sounds like they get a lot of requests for him, with a lot people claiming they have Engman-built engines that aren't. At any rate I explained the engine's history as I knew it, dropped a bunch of names, and sent a bunch of pics and hopefully it'll pique his interest. At this point all I'd be happy just to have his advice.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

Quote
hoche
The Mk2 Escort Compression strut idea looks like a champ. I'll have to do some measurements to find a good mounting spot where the wheel won't hit it at full lock. I'll get back to you all on that.

Found Rick Engman. Didn't talk to him, but talked to his front office guy. He's still building engines, but it sounds like it's mostly for historic-valued high-end stuff like 787s. It sounds like they get a lot of requests for him, with a lot people claiming they have Engman-built engines that aren't. At any rate I explained the engine's history as I knew it, dropped a bunch of names, and sent a bunch of pics and hopefully it'll pique his interest. At this point all I'd be happy just to have his advice.

Well maybe talk to Greg Lund as he's the one that bought the engine and knows exactly where it came from.

Found, uh...yeah.





But now the dash is almost removed (can't get to the last bits without dropping the column and removing the pedal box, and before I can remove the pedal box I need to disconnect the clutch master and brake masters and drain them):



Bunch of cleaned dash components (and rear vents):

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

Hm. Took out the rear springs, jacked up the diff and measured. Six inches of travel at the wheel hub. That's about what my Golves have, but is that sufficient for a RWD car?

Actually, there was some binding somewhere; the pass side has 6 1/2", the driver's side has 5 3/4". Might be the bent upper link mount, might be the bent panhard, might be shock inner-stop variance, might be a bent something else.


It'd be nice if I could find a Volvo shock that allows a little more range. I don't really want to redo the shock towers.

In other news: I haven't taken the rear axles out but I looked at the 240 manuals. What the hell holds the axles in place? The manuals make it seem like you can just pull on them and they'll come out but that can't be right.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe