If I'm right Antoine started in a RWD Corolla, then bought a Talon and then the Elantra that led to the Tiburons

---

Francois

I think you are trying to say that these guys all drive AWD, turbo charged cars and therefore you must have one to win overall. Seems to be true on an international level too. Every WRC champ for the past many years has been in such a car.

But I know that both Travis and Ken spent many hours at Team O'Neal learning on FWD VWs. And as I noted, along with several others, you don't start at the top.

So assuming a driver has buckets of money and wants to be a top rally driver ASAP, then that person starts in rented 2WD cars at a school. Then they rent an appropriate car to start in. If by chance or skill, they win in that class of car, then they rent an AWD turbo car from Vermont or another top knotch rally shop. They still don't buy a car. Name one champion in any form of racing who actually owns their car. I know of a few but I want to see if you consider them top forms of racing.

---

RichardM

I didn't know about the RWD Corolla, thanks. I remember the L'Estage family Talons. I was thinking of buying one.

But, no one has risen further, in less time, than Travis and Ken who did not follow RA novice guidelines. I contend that time spent in inferior machinery is wasted time if you wanna make the X-games.

How about Tanner. He seems to have awesome car control. How did he learn? The first time I noticed him, he was in a Flatirons PGT WRX.

---

Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net

Tanner Foust is a drifter and a stunt driver. He may have done some other stuff too.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

tedm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I didn't know about the RWD Corolla, thanks. I
> remember the L'Estage family Talons. I was
> thinking of buying one.
>
> But, no one has risen further, in less time, than
> Travis and Ken who did not follow RA novice
> guidelines. I contend that time spent in inferior
> machinery is wasted time if you wanna make the
> X-games.
>
> How about Tanner. He seems to have awesome car
> control. How did he learn? The first time I
> noticed him, he was in a Flatirons PGT WRX.
>
>
>
> Ted Mendham
> www.rensport.net

I am not sure when Tanner first started driving in competition, but he followed the advice I usually give kids who want to be race drivers. Tanner stayed in school and got a degree. I think it is in molecular biology or some such high tech field. Hence, if he hadn't been good enough to earn money driving, he could earn enough to drive any way. First I heard of Tanner, he was teaching an ice racing school in Colorado and that was well before he started rallying.

---

RichardM

tedm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I contend that time spent in inferior
> machinery is wasted time if you wanna make the
> X-games.
>

You are high...unless you have the ability to drive like a madman straight out of the box (you don't, it takes time and practice) it is pointless to dump and endless pit of money into an open class car to try and make a circus show like the X-games. Go rally learn how to work it in rally, then spend an obscene amount of money on open class bullshit if you want to make the X-games. You are assuming that you cant slide into an open class car AFTER you learn how to drive with anger.

Now if you REALLY want to go rally, get out of the country and get some REAL experience, get your ass kicked, come back and beat everyone ass around here....we are all slow in comparison to the rest of the world.

---

-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT

Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA

john vanlandingham Wrote:
> tipo158 Wrote:
> > john vanlandingham Wrote:
> > > Bullshit by that stupid logic then why would the
> > > rich guys over the years, the Joys, the Merrills,
> > > the Lagemans, the Iorios and on and on, buy the
> > > most powerful, most advanced cars they can
> > > possibly afford?
> >
> > Leave Matt Iorio out of this list. He IS fast.
>
> Whatever, he's just an example of guys jumping in
> with MASSIVE investments in machinery and
> immediately making "top" results.

Ah, I see what your point.

> > He is also lucky enough to have the resources to
> > compete at that end of the field.
>
> WAS lucky enough till somebody pulled the strings tight.
> And sorry Allen I really think the "All the Trust
> Fund will bear or I quit entirely" is also part of
> the problem.

Which problem are you talking about?

Maybe Matt came in with a plan to achieve certain things by a certain time or to attract sponsorship to take over the bills by a certain time.

> How long do you think he could have spread his
> spending on a more financially modest approach? 10
> years? Wanna bet he's be a better driver after 10
> years steady racing even if it were in something
> as boring as a good Volvo 240?

Does the goal have to be to stay in the sport forever? Maybe he reached the point where he thought to himself that he was driving as well as he would ever drive, so maybe it was time to quit. Maybe his goal was to compete at the top and he couldn't keep up with the arms race against SRT USA and decided to pack it in (isn't that one of the big criticisms of having works teams in the championship?).

> > > > John Lane is a figment of our imagination?
> > > John's car is a pretty sophisticated thing and has
> > > enormous amounts of bhp and torque, and NOW THAT
> > > HE's MATURED, and doesn't make huge blunders, he's
> > > done some excellent results.
> >
> > I am not knocking Mr. Lane. He is an excellent
> > driver and is certainly doing better now that he
> > has matured and realized that it is better to
> > finish at the finish rather than in a ditch.
>
> > However, both of his recent triumphs benefited
> > from circumstance. At Doo Wops, it was Hintz
> > losing the header of his very new-ish Turbo 4wd
> > Subaru on the first stage

Considering the number of rallies it has done, it is pretty old car at this point. I co-drove in it while it was still Nat's car back in 2003.

> > and Van Bogart in his new-ish very expensive " I
> > rent this for $30,000 per event" turbo 4wd EVO
> > coming too close to seeing God and backing
> > off.

Actually, this car was brand new at the time. And it was
a Subie, not an Evo. Peter sold off all of the Evo stuff
last year. The new car is a push-the-rules-to-the-limit
PGT car.

What is your point here? They were running newer cars?
Mark Tabor ran a car of similar vintage as Dave's but wasn't
competing for the top.

FWIW, I have co-driven for Peter and I know he can drive.

> And you left off our good buddy TomB, sidelined
> with "1 pump in the car, and 2 in the truck"
> instead of 2 in the pink and one in the
> wait--sorry 2 in the car and 1 in the truck---a
> weee oversight.

My apologies to Tom for leaving him out. His drive on Sunday was THE drive of the rally. However, his car showed that it could not maintain that pace.

> Still though, who do you suppose drove better?

Tom.


alan

Now I get it...there is a thread on SS about a newbie with a AWD saab ( Heath)..I missed the thread Ted is in, hence my confusion ( along with old age and this horrible head cold )

So Ted is Ted, whom I've talked to before and I think bought some Sube struts from.

Ted, you make some good points in your "rant" and some way off base ones . I know back in the late 80s or so , a novice was killed back east in a Quattro ( shakey memory here) . There weren't a bunch of AWD cars in those days and the Subes weren't fast at all. Even then SCCA and the regional groups were talking about restricting novices after that.

I personally know several people locally that have recieved waivers, none of whom are rich or influential. I haven't heard of anyone being turned down myself. I have heard of guys getting discouraged and quitting or buying a car they really didn't want . There have been a couple guys who wasted money on total crap trying to buy someones old beater 2wd car. I have argued this rule with JB for that reason alone. I think someone should start in 2wd for a variety of reasons, but I don't think they should be forced to. I think the AWD policy should be anyone can start in one , BUT it has to have a 28mm restrictor and no active diff, no notes.

Then waivers could then be applied to allow someone with reasonable experience to get a bigger restricter or different gear box.

In reality a person can get dead in a 2wd car just as easily. With the 34 mm restrictor cars are limited to around 315 hp and 430 ft lbs tq. any light 2wd vW will be nearly as quick, just lacking a bit on launch grip. Giving away 100 hp and 1000lb makes still a quick car.

So I agree with most of your points on SS.


Richard, maybe consider changing your name to "Dick" ?? For all the spatting I do with JVL, I know he cares deeply for rally, supports the sport as he can and provides endless advise, energy and support for novices. He and I can argue all day long and still remain friends and have mutual respect. You however are just a butt. Seems like someone who is an RA organizer could maybe take a little higher road ?

Gene

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Richard, maybe consider changing your name to
> "Dick" ?? For all the spatting I do with JVL, I
> know he cares deeply for rally, supports the sport
> as he can and provides endless advise, energy and
> support for novices. He and I can argue all day
> long and still remain friends and have mutual
> respect. You however are just a butt. Seems like
> someone who is an RA organizer could maybe take a
> little higher road ?
>
> Gene

Gene,
I have never used any language towards john similar to that he has used against me. My beef with john is that if you don't do it his way, you are called the lowest form of life on the planet. I also don't like it when he proclaims to have intimate knowledge of how a decision was made and that those decision makers are equally the lowest form of life. Years ago when I first met him, I asked the other rally teams that had come out from the northwest if john was always like he was behaving or if it was just the strain of competing. The response was John is John. He hasn't changed. He was rude, crude and boorish then and still is.
Richard

---

RichardM

I guess the rules don't say anything that specifically limits a novice to 2wd.

Did you notice a trend in the top speed factors. Yeah, it takes a whoe lot of money to get there. duh. I don't have any issue with the fact that one would need to be very well funded (as well as a good driver and lucky) to attain a RA speed factor of <90. That's life. Certainly RA can't be blamed for that. It's a rich man's sport, no matter who is sanctioning events. If I hit the lottery, I'd be calling Lance and kissing major butt, so I could give it a go, too. If I hit big, I would like spread around that I am Carl Merill's bastard child. ;-) I'll even wear a rubber duck hat.

But, when people make rules, they should be prepared to enforce them or at least ignore them in a consistant fashion. The Dave Mirra thing is salt in the wound to any noob who has been brushed off by JB Niday. At least Travis was setting fast stage times when he started out, showing some driving talent between offs.

Gene, I was running STPR in 1992 when a novice driver died in an Audi. I heard he was one of Bruno Kreibech's crew guys. He wasn't setting unusually fast stage times.

From Rally Racing News:
1992 STPR results
DNF 60 Open class Seed 6 Jonel Broscanc Glendale, NY Audi Quattro

And yeah, I shipped you some WRX struts last year.

---

Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2008 12:29PM by tedm.

If I hit the lottery I'd put 1 million away to live on later. Then give money to all my family. With the rest I'd buy three R3 Civics or Clios and three BMW M3s. Two of the R3s and one of the BMWs would come here to play in the US, Mexico, and Canada. The other two M3s would stay in Finland. The other Civic would be in tarmac spec and go to France. I'd probably find a Swedish super model to sleep with and travel with between events. I'd pay my good friends here in Denver good money to maintain my cars here and take them around to events. I'd buy a 8 car hauler and let all of my friends load their cars on and we'd fly in on my private jet to each event. The jet would also be packed with beer and swedish models. We'd skip STPR because our partying and immoral ways wouldn't fly there. I'd buy a bunch of land up in Wyoming and have a huge pack of dogs and a humble house with a little air strip. And horses. And a sweet testing track and a go kart track and motocross track. I'd focus most of my time though on competing in France and Finland in the early years. The second car in Finland would be a back up car as well as a free loaner to my closest friends. I'd also probably build a super car Escort Cosworth to do Pike's Peak with. 800 hp and 2000 lbs would be the goal. I would not have a mansion or any street cars.
I totally need to win the lottery.

On topic: I think your logic makes sense. But really if one really wants to dominate in US rally, they should not waste their time and money competing here, or going to Team Oneil's school, they should go to Finland. Race there, go to rally schools and spend 2+ years competing there. Come back to the US and you will dominate whatever class you enter.

To get into the X-Games, you'd better build a car for and get invited to compete in the new WMG stadium rally series.

The Finnish guys that were going to come out for NEFR ran into some issues with getting their cars licensed in the US. They're still working on it and are now targeting RNY in October.

---

Grant Hughes

Tom wrote:
"You are high..."

Tom, no I am not high. And I think that my RA speed factor top 9 proveS you wrong. They all throw down the dollars on open class stuff to make it to the top.

I think you are high! Do you think you are a better driver than Matt Johnson? He sold his soul to Satan, traded his G2 Golf for AWD and evil turbos. He is about to make my RA top nine.

I don't care about Finland or Europe. I am talking about what I call the Rally America Big Show.

Have your fun in your MaxAttack car or whatever. You won't get any air time at the summer X-games. The kids will never know who you are. The kids do know who 43 and 199 are.

---

Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2008 01:17PM by tedm.

Speed factors mean very little to me. I couldn't even find your name on the current speed factor list, unless you are Edward....then you have a slower speed factor than I do which would be rediculous in a turbo charged all wheel drive superior machine.... Looks like you are driving a pretty expensive car with some OK results in your class.

I'm a horrible driver along with pretty much everyone else around here...I have moments of brilliance/insanity and other moments of complete stupidity...see upsidedwon rabbit. Matt Johnson is pretty quick, he was super fast in his PGT car, I expect that he will throw alot of money away on his open class efforts.

You should care about the rest of the world, because for the most part they have more participation and a hell of alot more people out there actually RACING. The Rally America BIG SHOW is cute, and the X_games are even cuter, why anyone would even give a rats ass about the X_games is beyond me, its an overrated rally-x on TV....I watched last year, it was entertaining, yet lacked actual rallying...hmm, what is being sold there?

I will have fun in my next car guaranteed. We'll be out there for a couple MAX ATTACK! events kicking Open class cars asses in G2 car, and I will be around for a while spending way less money and actually competing in my class, trying hard, crashing, fixing crap and coming back out for more.

I don't NEED kids to know who I am, I could care less, I want to RACE people that go FAST, its called RACING, you should try it...or you could dump a bunch of money into an non-competitive open class car and attempt to exchange one or two stage times a season with Pastrana or Block, sounds like fun to me. Either way you are HIGH if you think time spent in "inferior" machinery is wasted for some dude that wants to make the X-games, I thoroughly believe that if someone can MAX ATTACK! in a two wheel drive car they can MAX ATTACK! in an open class car, anger is still anger if you have the ability to control the car. but I digress, who cares about the X-games....really?

---

-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT

Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA

There is no arguement (from me) that rallying in many other parts of the world operates on a much higher level. Definitely, a driver that can compete in Finland or the UK, should be able to dominate in the RA Championship. The Higgins brothers (who I consider to be top British drivers) proved that when thay came over here and dominated. Travis proves that when he runs PWRC. Here, he is the champ. In PWRC, not so much.

Consider this though, how many Americans have gone over the pond and not come back with their tail sorta between their legs. It may be too harsh of a lesson. Too much of a confidence destroyer. If I was the super-rich mentor of what I thought was the next Pastrana, I might send him to driving school over there, to learn from the best, but not enter him in a season long campaign were he might be regularly humiliated and lose confidence in himself.

---

Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net

I think the answer lies in a fair and equally applied novice program. Most every auto sport has a specific path for driver growth...except rally. Whether it is driver schooling, mentoring, graduated vehichles or a number of ideas, something that actually benefits and nurtures novices will help all of us in the end.

So rather than arguing, maybe if a comprehensive plan were thought up ??

One downside I see for rally is that with so few events, sometimes only one a year in some areas, it becomes hard to provide any learning atmosphere or opportunities.

Randy Zimmer really made a good point about following Sprongles and learning a bunch from being right behind them ( for a short while).

Resticting novices ( unequally or not) can't be as beneficial as actually educating them.