AW11 MR 2: humor me

Okay, so these are pictures of a Delta but do you see any parts that look remotely like they would be on a club level MR2 or TR7? We're not even in apples and oranges territory here.

Hmmm, I bring up the Stratos and the response that I get is Group B photos. Why don't you put up images of the Stratos vs the MR2?

I have most books on the Stratos, including a service manual and homologation papers. Plus, an accurate 1/12 scale model kit. They weren't that sophisticated.

And since you are taking a whack at TR7s as well, Ken Wood won the Scottish national rally championship once and came second twice (I think) in TR7s. I was looking at buying one of his old TR7s (it started as an ex-Works car) a couple of years ago. The level of prep was about what you would find in high-end regional cars now.

Rallymech Wrote:
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> > Well put Gene. Can we end this thread now?


Hey Robert, got Jim's number?
I have this Corrado 1800 with this nice crank I've been saving as a core for him!!!!

Don't know if he wants it.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

MR2s are good enough to win in Finland. Actually, they're one of the hottest cars right now!

http://images.google.fi/imgres?imgurl=http://www.spoori.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/srcoulu08_la3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.spoori.net/%3Fp%3D432&usg=__cusZ2i6XUSgt-CjamwanDvwrCe8=&h=280&w=420&sz=40&hl=fi&start=1&um=1&tbnid=SMTLOs1tqyXktM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtoyota%2Bmr2%2Brallisprint%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dfi%26lr%3Dlang_fi%26sa%3DG

That old yarn - "too short wheels base" - is bullshit. A stain in old farts minds.
Did AUDI be stupid by cutting off a piece on S1 Sport? I don't think so. Personal experience; Starlets are way better than any Volvo, etc

---

- RWD rocks -

Topi Wrote:
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> MR2s are good enough to win in Finland. Actually,
> they're one of the hottest cars right now!
>
>
>
> That old yarn - "too short wheels base" - is
> bullshit. A stain in old farts minds.
> Did AUDI be stupid by cutting off a piece on S1
> Sport? I don't think so. Personal experience;
> Starlets are way better than any Volvo, etc
>
> Member of Swedish "Fart Förening"


*grabs popcorn, pulls up a chair, puts on 3d goggles*

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

I certainly can't read that article, but I'm pretty sure it's rallyX. Not at all the same as running 100 mph on unseen stages.

I agree with yor comments on wheelbase though. I like a short wheelbase car myself.

Funny thing is that all these differing opinions don't lead to a lot of drama. This is how ideas should be discussed and things can be learned, amazing...

Gimme sum o dat popcorn

Seriously, there isn't any drama. I'll admit it, I confused the Stratos with another car. Everyone please ignore the the cool Delta pictures. Also, I'm not taking a swipe at the TR7 which you obviously love...I hate all cars equally.

Tim Taylor Wrote:
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> Seriously, there isn't any drama. I'll admit it,
> I confused the Stratos with another car. Everyone
> please ignore the the cool Delta pictures. Also,
> I'm not taking a swipe at the TR7 which you
> obviously love...I hate all cars equally.

I am not sure if 'love' is the right word. Let's just say excessive familiarity is a closer description of the relationship. For me, cars feel right or they don't and I can't usually explain why.

I prefer to see a lot of different cars rallying. That's just my thing.

alan







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2008 07:17PM by tipo158.

John,

Jim's number is 360-318-3320 (they got the phone in WA). He is working on the car right now. I will be sending him some parts in the next few days.

Robert.
425-766-6559

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

tipo158 Wrote:
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> I have most books on the Stratos, including a
> service manual and homologation papers. Plus, an
> accurate 1/12 scale model kit. They weren't that
> sophisticated.

I'd love to see some of the homoligation paper specs. if you care to indulge me. This may not be Group B but it sure looks like a lot more than I've seen in any regional cars.

Chassis: Monocoque steel and space-frame construction with integral roll-cage. Fiberglass body.





Edit: to replace unreliable picture hot link










Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2008 02:52PM by Tim Taylor.

Tim Taylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> tipo158 Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> > I have most books on the Stratos, including a
> > service manual and homologation papers. Plus, an
> > accurate 1/12 scale model kit. They weren't that
> > sophisticated.
>
> I'd love to see some of the homoligation paper
> specs. if you care to indulge me. This may not
> be Group B but it sure looks like a lot more than
> I've seen in any regional cars.
>
> Chassis: Monocoque steel and space-frame
> construction with integral roll-cage. Fiberglass
> body.

The homologation papers are reproductions bound in a book and hard to scan without damaging the spine of the book.

A monocoque steel chassis is sophisticated? What do you think a unibody is?

An integral roll cage is sophisticated? Take a look at what you could get away with for a roll cage back then. Hurst won't let me run a vintage cage in my TR7. He describes it as a 'swing set'. The homologation paperwork has a diagram of the integral roll cage. Very rudimentary.

Non-structural fiberglass bodywork is sophisticated? How is this different from all of the non-structural plastic bodywork (or metal fenders) that is used in modern cars? BTW, fiberglass bodywork was/is a standard thing for small volume manufacturers. Usually, making dies for pressed steel parts is not economical in small volume.

However, I was talking about comparing technical sophistication, not design.

The Stratos chassis was made up from fairly simple steel bits welded together in a jig in an assembly line mode. And the jig was off. The front suspension pickups are not in the same position from the right side to the left side. The rear suspension is a simple strut set-up. The front is coil-over and double a-arm.

A WRX chassis is a lot more sophisticated than a Stratos chassis. More work went into prepping the chassis of Mark Mager's new WRX (or is it a STI?) rally car than went into prepping a Stratos in the day. The cage in Mark's car is on another planet compared to the cage in a Stratos.

mmmm,

rally motor by Enzo... tasty!

Tim Taylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> tipo158 Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> > I have most books on the Stratos, including a
> > service manual and homologation papers. Plus, an
> > accurate 1/12 scale model kit. They weren't that
> > sophisticated.
>
> I'd love to see some of the homoligation paper
> specs. if you care to indulge me. This may not
> be Group B but it sure looks like a lot more than
> I've seen in any regional cars.
>
> Chassis: Monocoque steel and space-frame
> construction with integral roll-cage. Fiberglass
> body.

Nice photos.

However, what do you think a Fiero looks like without its front and rear bodywork? I took the front and rear bodywork off of my Elise (and entered it in a car show and parade that way) and it looked similar (my '97 Elise costs less than an Evo or WRX sold at the same time). I am looking for photos, but I think an MR2 without fenders would look similar as well.

I'm really not trying to get into a pissing match over this. I own an MR2, so yes, I know exactly what a unibody mid engine car looks like with the fenders off. That wasn't the point I was (obviously very poorly) trying to make.

The level of prep into a new WRX is also irrelevant. The point I was attempting to address was a club level guy who is welding in a cage and bolting parts onto an AW11 chassis in his garage does not equal prepping a Stratos. The level of initial development by the factory that went into creating a low volume mid engine homoligated race car is unlikely to be equaled by any privateer modifying a consumer model.

I'll have to dig out the article but Toyota did try to make a factory rally car that looked like an early MR2 in the late '80's. It had wicked/violent handling and they abandoned the project before it was sorted out.

BTW: getting a look at the homoligation papers was just a curiosity on my part. I find that sort of stuff interesting but certainly don't damage the book over it.

Tim Taylor Wrote:
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Just to start, I don't see this as a pissing match. I think it is a fun discussion.

> The level of prep into a new WRX is also
> irrelevant. The point I was attempting to address
> was a club level guy who is welding in a cage and
> bolting parts onto an AW11 chassis in his garage
> does not equal prepping a Stratos.

And I was saying that I have seen high-end regional builds that are the same level of preparation as works cars in the 70s. As I said before, Lancia didn't even bother to get the chassis jig for the Stratos right.

Because there are better, off-the-shelf performance bits available now, I think someone in his garage could build a MR2 that theoretically has similar performance now. The MR2 does have an extra 6 inches of wheelbase However, hopefully he also has a big yard to test and sort out the car.

When I was collecting parts for my Formula Ford, I met a guy who used to make jigs for Boeing who scratchbuilt a GT40 in his garage.

> BTW: getting a look at the homoligation papers was
> just a curiosity on my part. I find that sort of
> stuff interesting but certainly don't damage the
> book over it.

The book is called 'Lancia Stratos: Thirty Years Later' by Andrea Curami, published by Georgio Nada Editore. Or, order them from ACCUS or MSA (unfortunately, they are over $100).

I'll give you a deal on the Delta Integrale homologation papers that I am selling I almost bought a Group N Integrale a couple of years ago.