What did you do to the rallycar today II

JohnLane Wrote:
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> The Steel is due to arrive today.
> I'll be ordering up a bunch of goodies from Burns
> Stainless.
> This will be amusing.

Just a heads up on the exhaust parts I have stopped using Burns Stainless and started buying bends from these guys:

http://store.racing-solutions.org/index.html

They are not quite as high quality (by no means bad they just have more clamping and tooling marks on them) but they're a hell of a lot cheaper and I have had excellent service. You still can't beat the Burns quality on transitions and collectors though.

Tim

Thanks Tim, I'll check them out.

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JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

Well, finally pulled the motor out of the Talon. Totally shot. All bearings are screwed with #1 rod spun out. So that motor needs new crank, bearings, oil pump, rings, and 1 Eagle rod...in addition to gaskets etc. Nice. Maybe time to just get a running junkyard motor in there and call it good?

Ordered a nice looking aluminum radiator/intercooler combo (RS500 knock-off) for the Xratty. Probably should fix the blinkers, windsheild, blower motor and exhaust first...oh well!

Hey Jason,

Look at the head and the condition of the parts therein. With everything damaged in the lower end, it's clear you had oiling failure. If the head is untouched, then one thing to suspect is that somehow too much oil got pumped to the head and left the sump dry. I've had this exact same thing happen on the first stage after a rebuild.
Some possibilities:
1) Oil drainback hole from the head plugged/restricted; is the head gasket right to align the dain back hole?
2) Oil flow restrictor left out of head or block if there is one
3) High pressure pump; often pumps too much to the head, and requires an oil flow restrictor to the head; this can also happen with higher than stock RPM's
4) Jammed or excessively shimmed oil pump pressure relief valve; causes excess oil pressure and the above problems

Other possibilities:
a) Sump not baffled and oil moves away from the pickup
b) Pickup screen right on the bottom of the pan causing starvation
c) Pan banged up into pick screen causing the same result
d) Old/bad oil pump

What oil are you using??

This problem SHOULD be solvable if you can pinpoint the cause.

Regards,
Mark B.

starion887 Wrote:
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> Hey Jason,
>
>
> Other possibilities:

No1: oil pump not primed, bearing damaged when cranking at low speed with no pressure, leading to failure.

2: if crank was ground: bearing shell wrong thickness. Seems I managed to miss read shell thickness recently--it happens.

> a) Sump not baffled and oil moves away from the
> pickup
> b) Pickup screen right on the bottom of the pan
> causing starvation
> c) Pan banged up into pick screen causing the same
> result
> d) Old/bad oil pump
>
> What oil are you using??
>
> This problem SHOULD be solvable if you can
> pinpoint the cause.
>
> Regards,
> Mark B.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Mark and John, I appreciate the words. It helps because I have no idea why this thing let go. I worked very carefully and kept everything clean. I really don't want to DNF again. Seems like a $1500 ebay JDM motor might be a way to go.

It had a brand-new standard oil pump and it generated pressure as soon as it started. In fact...more pressure than I've ever seen. I don't have a real guage that reads psi, but the stock guage was almost pegged....it usually sits around 'half'.

Head seems like it suffered a bit. There is some scoring on all the cam 'bearings' and the front bearing surface on the cam looks especially bad. Lobes are smooth.

All bearings in the block are shot, but the #1 side of the engine is much worse and that's the bearing that turned.

It was a brand-new crank from Top-Line. I suppose it's possible that there was a slight error in the sizing of stuff...but it ran really well for 50ish miles before it let go. I didn't baby it either...I tend to think if something was wrong in that dept it would have let go right away.

Oil pump is a mess. I put a balance shaft eliminator kit in there...it replaces the balance shaft pully with a 'plug' that turns. That is torn up.

Strange thing is...the head gasket blew. The head was freshly surfaced and I was running a cometic metal gasket. Also ARP studs. Careful to torque correctly. I never saw the car overheat. Either way...oil was full of water...could that have been the cause of all this??

Thanks!

Don't do the JDM motor thing. A friend got fucked on one via ebay on a good JDM motor that ended up being totally trashed and worthless.

We went through a similar time as you. At a hill climb we lost oil pressure and trashed some rod bearings. It was that stupid oil filter thing that the owner had forgot to tighten and it worked itself off.
So we take apart the engine and he rebuilds it. Also do one of the balance shaft eliminators. Puts it all back together at home and we put it back in the car. Runs okay for probably around 20-50 miles and then starts making bad sounds. Two inner rod bearings are trashed. Oil starved because he didn't sufficiently clean out the oil feeds in crank. I think we pulled and reinstalled the engine 5-6 times that summer until a good engine was finally in the car. Some of the other problems was the above mentioned JDM engine, that we just installed without first looking at internals, putting the bearing caps back on in the wrong order (since he didn't realize it mattered), and using the wrong sized bearings and not measuring clearance since he was out that stuff that I can't remember what it's called. I think in the end we went and pulled apart a junkyard motor and made sure the crank and bores were good, then cleaned the fuck out of everything, and in as clean environment as possible put everything back together, measuring every clearance and torqueing every bolt. It's still in that car and has done quite a few rallies and hill climbs with no problems.

The Intercooler/radiator combo kit huh. That's an interesting looking setup. I have the radiator and will probably end up considering getting the intercooler if I find that the 2WD Cossie one is not sufficient, which I doubt will be the case.

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Grant Hughes

Yea Grant, that's why I even hesitate with the JDM thing. You may or may not get an ok motor for $1500 + shipping. The good with that is they tend to come with spares. One I'm looking at comes with tranny/transfer case, altenator, all wiring including computer ect. I really want this car to run reliably, finsish Sandblast, and then maybe sell the thing so I can work on the Xratty. I just would hate to build the motor again for a grand, then lose another grand DNFing at Sandblast.

I would love to know what started the train wreck. Did the HG leak coolant into the oil and that trashed the bearings...or did an oiling problem lead to overheating somewhere that caused the HG to go. Really high oil pressure might have been due to something plugging an oil journal, but the block was steam-cleaned and the internals were brand-new. Something else I noticed. All the brgs are trashed, but it seems mostly due to debris in the oil. The 3 rod brgs that didn't turn don't look that bad. Doesn't seem like a sizing problem. I'll never know for sure, but I appreciate all the input. It helps to know what to look out for.

Well, the intercooler/radiator seems like a good deal for 300 bones. No idea what the quality is like. Don't think it will need more intercooling than that or anything similar. I would be very happy with a solid 250hp and that shouldn't tax a medium front-mount.

JV...Let us know when you're going to have xratty stuff available (like the square beams) etc. It's my Daily Driver right now, but no reason I can't upgrade stuff prior to caging it!

The comment about the unusually high oil pressure is of concern. I've been through exactly the same scenario: rebuilt engine a few days before a rally, did not have time to hook up the oil pressure guage, ran the sump dry and locked the bottom end. Upon rebuilding again, hooked up the oil pressure guage, it went right to 100 psi at start up. Truns out I had put new pump gears in an older pump housing with worn gears; I had shimmed the pressure relief valve with the old gears to get normal pressure, and did not take out the shims with the new pump gears. Result: super high pressure, and pumped the oil into the head and starved the sump on stage 1. I had run the car 300+ miles on shorts bursts of power to get broken in, but stage 1 at the raly was the first extended time for full power, and that's waht pumped enough oil to the head to starve things.

If you go that much pressure, then I am pretty convinced that you had too much, as indicated on the stock guage thingey. Lesson 1: Get a good oil pressure guage and use it. Lesson 2: you should be running no more than 60 psi cold in most engines.

Possible things that added to the oil presssure:
- New pump will do it. Where is the pressure relief valve? Could it have been blocked or shimmed and you did not know it?
- The 2.6L balance shaft elim kits will raise pressure in the 5-15 psi range; but should not be too much. We run them on Starion/Conquest 2.6L engines and see no more than 10 psi rise when cold or hot. The description of the 'plug that turns' kit is very different than the 2.6l kit however.
- Were the side clearances measured on the rods to the crank journal sides? Too small a clearance will restrict flow in the crank.
- Were the bearing clearances measured with Plastigage? We always set ours to ward the high end of the stock clearances.

With all that, and with knowing that you GOTTA address the high pressure problem, if you had coolant in the oil, then I'm having a hard time not believing that the head gasket failure was the real culprit. It's hard for me to think that an oiling failure would cause a head gasket to fail. (But stranger things have happened!)

Was the head gasket re-torqued after a good heating cycle?

I am also trying to figure where else that coolant could have gotten into the oil, besides the head gasket. Where did the gasket fail??

Regards,
Mark B.

Does your balance shaft removal mod still maintain the oil flow through it? I think we once had it where it couldn't allow oil through and it caused some problem. 3 long years and I already have trouble remembering though, but I think it created huge amounts of oil pressure or something.

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Grant Hughes

Damn. Sorry to hear all the 4G63 drama up in here. If it's any consolation, mine is running decently (knock on wood). Made the drive to and from Covina, California this weekend without issue. I even turned the boost up to 12psi. Runs great, but only gets about 250 miles to a tank.

Hang in there, fellas. You'll be back in the saddle in no time!

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Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

Mark, good call on the high pressure oil. The pump was brand-new, but the pressure relief is part of the oil filter housing/oil cooler which was old. I had shimmed that previously...not a whole lot, but maybe enough...never would have guessed that would be a problem to that extent.

Tons of oil flowing to the head makes sense. My Brother and I both noticed a pool of oil on the valve cover that seemed like it had come from the oil cap...just strange because I've never seen that from a good cap...different that's all.

Not sure on the HG. It's an all metal gasket and I couldn't tell where it blew. There was white smoke though, and water in the oil.

One more question for the forum: Any problem with re-ground cranks?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250159009337&_trksid=p3984.cWAT.m240.lVI

Anybody know where to get better stuff?

I would much prefer to take a crank I had in hand and have it magnafluxed or dye checked and ground at a local machine shop. You can tell them exactly what you want done.

How much was the purchased crank turned originally? If only .010" (or .25mm), then I assume you would be able to get .020"/.50mm undersized bearings, and then have the crank turned locally. (Many bearing sets are available in even greater undersizes.) It'll cost a fraction of that ebay ad price. You can polish the crank yourself with some strips of 400 and 600 wet-or-dry sandpaper and a thin strip of leather to turn it around the crank. Get a set of mics and check the crank directly after machining, then Plastigage all bearings as they get installed, and use a simple feeler gage to check the rod side clearances.

Was the white smoke from the exhaust? Look at the head, block, and gasket long and hard; it would be surprising to not spot some tell-tale sign of leakage on one of these three, assuming that is where the leak occured. Is there a water passage to the head through the timing cover? If so, does it require an o-ring? If it does, and is not renewed, then an old water (or oil) passage O-ring is a good point to fail. Any cracks in the timing cover where water could get through, like around the water pump? And how about the turbo" Could the center section housing be cracked and allowing water into the oil? (assuming it has cooling in the turbo like our Mitsu).

Regards,
Mark B.

My car had cooling problems so idecided to change the thermostat. It turns out the thermostat in the car was always open coz someone (Previous owners) cut the spring mechanism etc. off and left it like that. Now my radiator fan doesnt get power so gotta fix that. Ordered a fuel pump since its been whinning and will change that tomorrow...

Hopefully will be ready for the rallysprint this weekend.
Before sandblast need to call john and get me one of those FDs...

Oscar

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

frumby Wrote:
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> So that motor needs new crank,
> bearings, oil pump, rings, and 1 Eagle rod...in
> addition to gaskets etc.

BTW, the rod may be salvagable. Both halves of the big end can be precisely ground down, which closes the big end 'hole' when re-assembled. Then a new big end hole is bored in the rod's big end. Any quality machine shop should be able to do this. Take it in and see what they can do; it might be trashed but maybe not.

Mark B.