JVL's case for rallyng Volvo's

Vorpal_Rally Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok,
>
> George has the car, a 244DL. I'll be acquiring it
> shortly.

Oh gooody goody!!

I've been searching and researching past
> posts here and in the construction forum on SS.
> I've seen some pics of some tasty bright green
> suspension pieces.

Yep they're certainly green!




Particularly those lower
> control arms. Just a guess, but it seems those are
> a weak point, hence the upgraded ones?

Well they're weak but just how weak is a question maybe Mr "Nothing exceeds like excess" Lane or Brian Hamblin in SoCal could better answer.
You should note that our resident "CAD-Porn" artiste Tim Taylor and I are moving forwards on plans for tubular, in-situ adjustable lower arms so you can crack loose a jam nut, twirl the adjusters and set cambe and camber directly rather than by using the cumbersome adjustable top mounts. They may look sumpin like this:





The Dana
> 30 LSD looks very promising, but I'll with a
> welded diff for now.

Can't beat the price!!!




From what I've read, the N/A
> motor does not produce enough torque to break a
> T5.

Truth be told, the turbo motor, tuned for realistic amounts of power for rally use won't stress a T5 either. A genuine 230 BHP with buckets of torque is more than enough to win in Gp5 and as we saw from Carl Jardevall, good enough to beat anybody but the imported English regularly.


>Eventually something along the lines of
> Grant's dogbox from G-Force is where I am headed.


Ya know, if we had 60-100 similar spec cars in one class then I might think the tiny fraction of a second quicker shifting a dog box gives you MIGHT maybe be worth it, but with closer ratios, like REAL: close ratio with 2.3 first and say 0.84 top, a synchro box shifts just as fast as most of use can shift and doesn't bang on itself every shift.
So regular periodic rebuilds aren't a requirement.

> Brakes, I see John does some really awesome
> binders. Anything else I oughta be thinking
> about?

Getting a good oil cooler and a good clutch:



and good engine mounts:



And a good tranny crossmember:

>
> menja bé, caga fort i no tinguis por a la mort!


You planning on normal aspriated or Group5?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I have used boxed Volvo control arms, the Taxi cab control arms (expensive and now rare) and junk that was fabbed up from bits that at the end of the day proved to be much more costly then just buying the good shit from Sellholm and being done with it. I did the wierd stuff on suggestions of certain experts who were just certain that it was a great idea.

My suggestion..... While you are getting up to speed with the car....

Box your 240 control arms. Simply weld a plate to the bottom of the control arm and drill holes so that you can get to the fasteners for balljoints.
Use Bilstien's inserts with dampning values close to what Volvo used in the 552198 R-Sport inserts with springs of 350lb/inch.
The Poly bushings will do nice things in the front end.

Get a Quickrack. John VanLandingham sourced guts for one, I supplied a core and the two were mated together at the rebuilder's in what has been a fine thing for the car. My guts make for 2.5 turns lock to lock. I would do 2.0 turns were I to do it over. My steering rack has required absolutely ZERO babysitting. I love it.

Remove the sway bars and save them for that track day.

Once you are going pretty quick you will start breaking spindles and bending strut tubes.....

Be ready to spend your money wisely. Sellholm has been doing this stuff for a long time and knows WTF they are doing. You are saving exactly ZERO dollars when suspension fails and causes the car to be wadded up into a little ball (ask me how I know!!). You have saved exactly a lot less then that when it happens again cuz you are developing suspension for someone else.

Spend your money once on Sellholm's package and be done with it.

Expensive? Yup. I figure 15 to 25 cents on the dollar for what I have into lost entry fees when shit broke making for a DNF, bodywork, not to mention the reality that the contents of the car could well have been killed when previous efforts at cobbled together suspension, wheel bearings ect failed at three digit speeds.

Spend your money wisely. It will sting a bit, but Sellholm's package is fully developed, bolts into the car and is the end of it. Oh... the car handles well enough to make fine results on old shit for tires after having not been on gravel for five years.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2008 10:13AM by JohnLane.

What's the Sellholm stuff you're talking about?

---

Grant Hughes

JohnLane Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have used boxed Volvo control arms, the Taxi cab
> control arms (expensive and now rare) and junk
> that was fabbed up from bits that at the end of
> the day proved to be much more costly then just
> buying the good shit from Sellholm and being done
> with it. I did the wierd stuff on suggestions of
> certain experts who were just certain that it was
> a great idea.

John, you're really starting to look "not too nice" even if you're using nice polite language.
I got you your stuff way back when I was in Boston, and you and the car was out here, and I seem to recall thaty there was somebody else involved in doing the actual install.
It seemed like a good idea for you at the time considering how often you were crashing into hard objects at the time.
Maybe 3 cooks might have been too many.
No reason to start making hints and innuendos, keep that for Special Stage.

Re the wheel bearings problem, we tried something, it didn't work and that was that in your book, no further attempts, no discussion, no research.
Desite suggestions that there were retro fit kits to use off the shelf Ford Transit bearings.
You seem to forget, you were deep into the split of the business and you were very short and no fun to talk to.

>
> My suggestion..... While you are getting up to
> speed with the car....
>
> Box your 240 control arms. Simply weld a plate to
> the bottom of the control arm and drill holes so
> that you can get to the fasteners for balljoints.
> Use Bilstien's inserts with dampning values close
> to what Volvo used in the 552198 R-Sport inserts
> with springs of 350lb/inch.
> The Poly bushings will do nice things in the front
> end.
>
> Get a Quickrack. John VanLandingham sourced guts
> for one, I supplied a core and the two were mated
> together at the rebuilder's in what has been a
> fine thing for the car. My guts make for 2.5
> turns lock to lock. I would do 2.0 turns were I
> to do it over. My steering rack has required
> absolutely ZERO babysitting. I love it.
>
> Remove the sway bars and save them for that track
> day.
>
> Once you are going pretty quick you will start
> breaking spindles and bending strut tubes.....
>
> Be ready to spend your money wisely. Sellholm
> has been doing this stuff for a long time and
> knows WTF they are doing. You are saving exactly
> ZERO dollars when suspension fails and causes the
> car to be wadded up into a little ball (ask me how
> I know!!). You have saved exactly a lot less then
> that when it happens again cuz you are developing
> suspension for someone else.

Hey John, while you're trying to drive customers away, why don't you post the itemized bill for what you paid, suspension wise.
Why don't you mention that you had to fuck around and find justthe specific wheel to clear the brakes.

When you post up veiled slams, it's pretty weaselly John. You paid a LOT of money,
nearly 3 times as much, for stuff using the exact same insert---50mm Bilstein--- and the exact same material I suppose, I use chrome moly 4130 DOM, only difference is I'm making it so people can swap out the strut, Sellholm welds the tube directly into the knuckle.

>
> Spend your money once on Sellholm's package and be
> done with it.

How much?
>
> Expensive? Yup. I figure 15 to 25 cents on the
> dollar for what I have into lost entry fees when
> shit broke making for a DNF, bodywork, not to
> mention the reality that the contents of the car
> could well have been killed when previous efforts
> at cobbled together suspension, wheel bearings ect
> failed at three digit speeds.

John, that's a pretty amazing accusation considering that you were there doing some of that "cobbling together" and resisted doing it better once it was done first time. I personally was alarmed and shocked when you seemed rather lackadaisical about some of the execution of some of the stuff.
Seems pretty strange now top be blaming everybody else which is really just me and Dave Clark.
You were there too.
>
>
>
>
> JohnLane
>
> Overkill is consistently more fun
>

> JohnLane.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What's the Sellholm stuff you're talking about?

John recently bought some Sellhom 50mm stuff, some rear shocks and some Alcon big brake thing so Sellholm can do no wrong. He told me the price for the total but we can hope that he posts it here in detailed form.
It is shockingly expensive to purchase and the freight was doubtless crazy as well.

Hey Grant, you want to get some slightly used big ass GpA alloy front uprights hubs brake discs and big ass AP calipers?
John has some--which were previously on his car-- and isn't using them anymore.
Well maybe get the uprights and TCA and compression rods.

John was killing the wheelbearings in kit we discussed and made rather than jusdt getting the crazy expensive kit from A1 in Sandy, Bedforshire.
Some have thought that he was crushing them with the big impact gun, too much internal preload, then failure but who knows.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John you give yourself too much credit.

You were but one of several who were involved in my car having cobbled together Ford front suspension that I asked for and that did not work for shit.

So that the uninitiated will know..... Cobbled into the front of my Volvo was Ford Escort Cossie Gp-A 4X4 front suspension. John VanLandingham sourced this stuff from overseas (UK?). Most parts were used. Dave Clark was hired to install. The AP calipers with big rotors on hats were bitchin' until things started happening. Things like a suspension upright (Magnesium) broke on stage at speed. Wheel bearings failed. John V at the time spoke of a 'Kit' to replace the wheel bearings (The Gp-A stuff was no longer available) but felt that we would do just fine with a wheel bearing that he supplied in a housing that he had made up with a local machinist on a lathe. Wheel bearings failed almost immediately. The failure would show up as the wheel bearing would allow the brake rotor to contact the brake caliper in one corner of the car. At speed when the left-front brake is applied the car will do a pirouette. The car got bent up badly and ended upside down.
Wheel bearings got replaced along with body repairs. Next time out with the car still smelling of the bodyshop it happened again. This time the car landed on the driver's side. The car did then get parked for five years until I could get this solved.
Post failure inspection suggested the failue to be due to geometry issues with how loads are centered in the wheel bearing.

I readily accept my part in what proved to be a series of failures in my car's front suspension and there John.... you have seen it for yourself. John when I screw up I accept that I did so and make every effort at not doing so again. Can you say the same? You will notice that I did not use your name to slam you previuously.

John you got quite a compliment where it fit: The steering rack you did has performed flawlessly.

Point is not that you or any one else's efforts were garbage, but that development can and often IS painful. I learned a painful lesson. I will not be a guinea pig for others development efforts.

John you ask how much? The answer is $7500.00 yankee dollars. Yup, a lot of dough.

The Sellholm price includes 'Ambulance Spindles' (I have never seen an 'Ambulance Spindle' in Volvo parts Fiche and to look at it do not see what is different) including strut tubes with adjustable spring perches, 50mm Bilstien dampners valved how Sellholm wants them, 350lb/in Springs, Helper springs, Spherical strut top bearings, control arms for front suspension as John has posted photos of, hubs with new wheel bearings (used bearing hubs) Alcon front calipers, Alcon rotors on hats, fancy braided brake lines that require elimination of the stupid Volvo 'Dual diagonal' hydraulic circuit which should be done with a rallycar anyway.
Also included in that price is rear springs and Bilstien dampners that I have not yet fitted to the car, shipping and import duty.

John the wheel that I had to 'fuck around to find to clear the brakes' is the Volvo 15" wheel called 'Sirius' made by Volvo and used in 700 series cars. It clears the brakes without modification and can be had for much less then any manner of 'Compomotive' wheel that I'm aware of.

John your customer who purchased suspension for his 240 has found that it makes for 4 degrees of positive camber when installed and called me asking what he should do.

I have concerns about the strength of the joint between strut and spindle + concerns about what happens with loads through the spindle in your design.
John what are your thoughts?

John Lane

20:05 3/17/2008 Edit... John after all the spleen you let fly in your previous post, I'm surprised that you are suddenly quiet. I have tried to reach you on the telephone today. Your phone rings and rings. This is not like you. I think you can see that I'm not trying to make WWIII here on Rally Anarchy with you.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2008 10:05PM by JohnLane.

JVL, I've had lotsa talks with ol' mr Lane, and he doesn't and hasn't singled you out for criticism regarding the past build of his car when I've been around.. So settle down Beavis, there's plenty of blame for everyone! I'm quite sure there's no offense intended.

---

Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

JohnLane Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John you ask how much? The answer is $7500.00
> yankee dollars. Yup, a lot of dough.

That seems pretty fair for what you got, when you consider most 50 mm rally suspension costs, and the brake parts cost, and our crap exchange rate.

> John your customer who purchased suspension for
> his 240 has found that it makes for 4 degrees of
> positive camber when installed and called me
> asking what he should do.

That is a huge disadvantage in buying longer travel suspension in cars that lack adjustability in alignment settings. I'm dealing with the same thing in all four corners as the Merkur is only adjustable in the front and only for toe. Everything else is fixed. Semi-trailing design means that the fucking rear toe and camber are continuously variable. I've got camber adjustability up front figured out via adjustable track control arms from Burton Power, but still have a Safari suspension look and bad settings in the rear. The other question is if they have too much travel in the rear for the CVs to handle. I've got a solution to that though with a CV that will give me 4 degrees additional articulation.

---

Grant Hughes

Grant if you are interested, the suspension uprights, GP-A control arms and that stuff are available for adoption. This stuff is for a 4X4 Cossie. You will need to source wheel bearings and struts.

If you've a Cossie engine I've a 4x4 oil pan for ya.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/car/608994172.html

Well, Colin McRae drove Bill Malik's 242 during the practice session outside of LA for the first X-Games. His only complaint about the car was that the brakes were too spongy. Upon inspection in the shop later, it turned out a master cylinder was failing.

Bill is having trouble finding the pictures of McRae in the car (for you non-believers), but Colin signed the roof, inside and out. If a Volvo was good enough for Colin to take time away from running those Subies, I would say it's probably good enough for anybody on this board.

...Brian...

> Well they're weak but just how weak is a question
> maybe Mr "Nothing exceeds like excess" Lane or
> Brian in SoCal could better answer.

I've never run the rally car with standard A-arms, so I don't have a comparison to offer. I would plate both the A-arms and the trailing arms to begin with. The other designs out there are good, but if starting out, just plate them. It's simple and straightforward. I hit a rock at 80+ mph in 2006 with the left front and the A-arm came through pretty well -- I think I could actually use it again. But we broke a spindle. Here's a picture of the impact: http://www.rallybrick.com/imgs/comp_photos/laughlin06/laughlin06_01_450_img_8708.jpg

The Sellholm stuff is very strong -- to the point that it appears that it won't take an impact too well and transfers the energy of an off to the body. Malik's had some problems breaking body mounts with his Sellholm A-arms.

I have Sellholm rear shocks and SAM springs. The combination is very strange when the car is sitting still (it feels like there are no shocks at all), but is absolutely fantastic when in gravel. Very grippy, as the rear end gets squatty. It absorbs the jumps very well, too.

...Brian...

That's your car that lost the left front? That must have been quite the experience!

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

hudson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's your car that lost the left front? That
> must have been quite the experience!

There's a series of photos on the site. We covered a hundred yards or so in a couple of seconds in front of Roger the photog. His camera shoots 6 frames a second. After 6 frames, he started running. We joke that it's the Zapruder film.

We were going fast (on old, hard tires -- not recommended), then we were drifting, then we lost the wheel, then we were cussing, then we thought we were going to roll, then we were trying to figure out how much the repair was going to cost! Considering it was our second race -- I'd not want to do it again!

...Brian...

If there is anyone out there who is seriously thinking of building a 240 wagon rallycar, I've got a running '86 stick wagon you can HAVE FOR FREE.


Take that, you lazy proletariat.