I don't get it, someone car to explain?

I was over at SS., checking out the "you got to be kidding me?" thread.

Please correct me if I'm wrong-but the just of it is; yes the prices are high but they're in line with other events so it's okay.

Holy crap that's the worse logic I've ever heard! So if all the events double the entry fee for next year then it will be okay because they're all in line with each other??

I can't help but wonder how many days folks work just to earn monies to enter an event. I'm talking the average guy that helps keep the boat a float, not the 6 or 7 that are running a National series.

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

Sean,
Us organizers are in competition with each other. Especially for the regional competitors. So we will work to keep our prices down. But we don't want to lose too much money either. As to the logic of the statement that you don't understand, try it like this: Fords are too expensive but then they cost about the same as the equivalent Chevy or Toyota or Chrysler or VW or etc. So I guess Ford isn't gouging me any more than any one else.

Or perhaps all of us organizers, both Rally America, NRS and the independents get together in private e-mails and figure out how to get more money from the suckers who run rallies.

---

RichardM

Now we're starting to see a new trend...in a couple different regions groups of "volunteers" are _requesting_ fuel, food and lodging expenses. That can add $100 to the entry fees.

It just keeps getting better....

Sean,
I haven't yet entered an event, but if I was to run Wild West ($700 late entry fee), I would have to work about 45 1/2 hours to pay for it (after our uncle takes his cut).
For comparison, it takes me 30 hours each month to pay rent.

I believe that I make about average wages for skilled labor.

---

Monika Hawkinson
Seattle, WA

Sofa King Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sean,
> I haven't yet entered an event, but if I was to
> run Wild West ($700 late entry fee), I would have
> to work about 45 1/2 hours to pay for it (after
> our uncle takes his cut).
> For comparison, it takes me 30 hours each month to
> pay rent.

So OBVIOUSLY you live in a dive and should find somewhere better to live.
Silly Rabbit, your axle brackets are here.
>
> I believe that I make about average wages for
> skilled labor.
>
> Kevin Hawkinson
> Seattle, WA
> 83 Volvo 240 Gp5 (in progress)
> 34-ish

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now we're starting to see a new trend...in a
> couple different regions groups of "volunteers"
> are _requesting_ fuel, food and lodging expenses.
> That can add $100 to the entry fees.
>
> It just keeps getting better....


this is gonna get ugly fast i think.

do you think it is safe to assume that many of those people wouldnt be able to help out at all with some small form of compenstation?

just looking at the flipside a bit but without the people to put on the event there would be no event.

and if the volunteers cant afford to get to events then what are we gonna do? there isnt exactly a flurry of people wanting to volunteer.

i think rallying is going to take a huge hit real soon and it isnt RA or NASA's faults.

i know i cant even afford to volunteer right now. and i am sure there are more in my boat too.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sofa King Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sean,
> > I haven't yet entered an event, but if I was
> to
> > run Wild West ($700 late entry fee), I would
> have
> > to work about 45 1/2 hours to pay for it
> (after
> > our uncle takes his cut).
> > For comparison, it takes me 30 hours each
> month to
> > pay rent.
>
> So OBVIOUSLY you live in a dive and should find
> somewhere better to live.

Yeah! See Kevvie, if you lived in a nicer place you could afford entry fees easier than you could afford rent and all would be right with the world!

Or something like that.

Greg Donovan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> heymagic Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Now we're starting to see a new trend...in a
> > couple different regions groups of
> "volunteers"
> > are _requesting_ fuel, food and lodging
> expenses.
> > That can add $100 to the entry fees.
> >
> > It just keeps getting better....
>
>
> this is gonna get ugly fast i think.
>
> do you think it is safe to assume that many of
> those people wouldnt be able to help out at all
> with some small form of compenstation?
>
> just looking at the flipside a bit but without the
> people to put on the event there would be no
> event.
>
> and if the volunteers cant afford to get to events
> then what are we gonna do? there isnt exactly a
> flurry of people wanting to volunteer.
>
> i think rallying is going to take a huge hit real
> soon and it isnt RA or NASA's faults.
>
> i know i cant even afford to volunteer right now.
> and i am sure there are more in my boat too.

Yes it is expensive to even volunteer. This is a fact that many ralliests don't realize. Gas to the event, food at the event , lodging if it's a long ways from home.

Some organizers have gotten lazy and find it easier to raise the entry fees rather than even ask for new volunteers. There are already some upset workers who aren't recieving the same compensation. I'm sure there are some potential employee/employer legal issues lurking in the background.

We need to grow the entry fields to lower costs per car. The expense is so high right now that point may be in the past. We need possibly less events with greater numbers. If we make a bigger economical impact in an area then maybe road fees will go down or new roads will open up. We definitely need to work events we are not competing in. Too many drivers and crew never bother to help when they aren't competing. They'll show at tech to snoop around, go spectate at couple of stages and that's it. Others always show up to work a stage and help. We can't rightfully expect others to come out stand in the rain, sun, dust, snow, night so we can have fun if we don't care enough to do it ourselves.

We also need to make a better effort to keep cars in competition condition. We always figure on losing around 5 entries before the start. You read it all the time...6 months since last event...new motor on Wed, blows up on Thurs, no make tech on Friday...constant issue. Lose 5 entries and there's about $2k gone from the old budget.

Road fees, equipment expenses, fuel, route books,lodging, other paper work and postage, permit fees, sanction fees, porta potties, trophies, dinner, sometimes t-shirts, medics, ambulance, security.

Every $100 in expenses adds over $3 to the entry on a 30 car field. I don't know how California supports rally with 15 car fields. We certainly couldn't. Get hit with a couple thou extra for road fees or damage or have 4 cars not show up and big trouble.

DooWops broke dead even at $300, no frills, nothing left for un-expected expenses. We'll have to likely look at $350 next year , and that's still a bargain.

I'll guarantee both NRS and RA are concerned with costs and do what they can to keep things stabil. Rally is going to stay expensive I'm afraid. Bitching about it won't help much. Volunteer when you can, ensure your car will finish an event, wash the car once in a while and seek local sponsorship.

Still I see people lined up at the local lattee stand to buy a $4 cup-o-joe...

This may be an outgrowth of what is happening in racing. NASA (the race side, not the rally side) pays corner workers here in Texas. So does PCA, the BMW club and some others. As a consequence, it is harder to get corner workers at SCCA events. But local regions are now providing gas cards for working and SCCA is offering reduced renewal fees for those who work events. I am afraid this may become another expense we have to consider.

---

RichardM

so here's a question I was a bit to shy to ask over on SS.com, but feel strangely comfortable asking over here, so here goes.


I followed the 'new photo/licenscing' RA rules about getting a pass to be a photograher, etc...all that jazz.


so if they can make a rule like that, why can't they make a rule that segregates what type of competitor you are, where your source funds dictate your entry fee?


ie.

'the high roller competitor'

If you roll up in an 18 wheeler with a big 'MONSTER ENGERGY DRINK' logo on the side, a gaggle of tech engineers, paparazzi, and 3 spare engines....."Hello Mr. Ken Block, great to see you, $10,000 please!"

^^if his sponsors can pay for his ride, why can't they pay for his entry fee? $10K from Monster Energy drinks is a drop in their marketing budget, but is a HUGE influx for an organizer. And if they KNOW KB is going to show up (and TP, and AP, etc), that's a lot of money they know they're going to have in the bucket. Everything else is gravy.


'the mid range competitor'

someone that has MOST of their ride paid for....I dunno the field of competitors that well, maybe a Matt Johnson or something like that. <---TOTAL speculation, I really don't know MJ's situation, so don't take that me thinking I know something about MJ...maybe he pays for all his stuff, I dunno.

entry fee.....$1500 or maybe $2K


'grass roots competitor'

Thanks for showing up on time after coming right from work and driving all night in your beat-up pickup truck. $600 please




NOW....I might be opening up a huge can of worms, I dunno....but this is where I see 'big corporations' helping rally. All that extra money would go towards volunteers, putting on a real, show....blah, blah, blah.

More money isn't always the answer, but it certainly makes things easier...and when you're on the verge of going broke, it makes all the difference.

Now, the HOW you separate those three 'competitor types' is the real can of worms, because if someone is on the line between 'grassroots' and 'mid-range' could certainly cause some issues.


I didn't say I had the answers, or that it was a good idea, just wanted to ask the question. please don't hurt me.


PS, edited only for grammar

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2008 11:27AM by Jon Burke.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DooWops broke dead even at $300, no frills,
> nothing left for un-expected expenses. We'll have
> to likely look at $350 next year , and that's
> still a bargain.

That right there solves the problem.
Lower entry fees will encourage competition. Do we really need the frills or are we going to drown ourselves trying to up the bar. People will probably hate me for saying it, but reduce the number of stages, but increase the stage mileage. Choose longer stages and run them more times. If a stage is under 5 miles is it worth all the necessary workers if you could instead have half the workers and run a 10 mile stage twice?

---

Grant Hughes

and for the record, I'm running a RallyX in August....if Ken Block rolled up and wanted to compete, I'd say, 'WOW, thanks for coming Mr. Block, your entry fee is $500.'


'huh? oh, no thanks, I hate that Monster shit.'

EDIT: actually, no, since FRX is technically a registered CA non-profit business, I'd take the high road and say your entry is FREE, but we'd really appreciate a $500 donation to help cover our costs.

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2008 11:38AM by Jon Burke.

As a volunteer more often than anything else I'm going to chime in.

I don't expect much being a volunteer. I may not go and volunteer at the events that are a long drive because I can't cover the gas and the lodging, but at local ones (even though the costs can still be high) I'm still usually able to talk a few other people into volunteering with me. But, if some sort of organizing could be done for carpooling and getting places to stay, even if it's on someone's floor who lives in the area, you'd probably be able to get people like me to go to more of the ones that are a bit of a drive. I didn't go to Olympus this year because I'd just started a new job and simply couldn't afford to take any time off, or drive that far each way and then be that dang tired when I got to work on Monday morning.

Here's a suggestion for getting volunteers. Give us rides in the cars. Talking to some other people who started out volunteering before turning into drivers, they got to get rides in the cars. I've been helping out at rallies since I was 6 years old and I've never gotten offered to have a ride in a rally car. Never knew it was happening somewhere, never knew it was an option (maybe it no longer is, but hell, I didn't know then, maybe I still don't know now and yes, now that I know that it's at least happened in the past I'm jealous). But I will say this, if you could set up a time when people could get them, I bet you'd have a lot more people willing to help out if they got a chance now and then to experience a short practice type stage a couple of times, even if it's only at 60-70 percent speed. Maybe hold a lottery for it, put tickets in the packets and then at the awards dinner announce who wins rides at the next local event.

I'm sure there's other ways as well to attract volunteers. But for me, I volunteer because I love the sport.

*correction*

I never got a ride in someone else's rally car. I rode in my mom's rally car regularly, but that was usually on the way to school. Now and then she'd take me out to play on the logging roads where we lived.

Sean,
Yeah, the entry fees HAVE gone way up. STPR early entry isn't that much more than other RA National events. But, that is a small part of the total weekend cost increase.

How about the cost of fuel? Or,increased safety equipment costs, one day events now 3 day events. Need 3x the hotel room nights. Need service crew for more days, etc. It wasn't that long ago that my service crew used to get out of work Friday and take a midnight beat-run to get to the service area Sat. Now they need to be there to run the car through tech on Thursday. I don't know anyone who would take that much time off work to volunteer to service..

It is going pro! If you can't write Lance a seven figure check then at least you still can cheer on the SRT-USA boys. Bummer for me. I hope it's better in the PNW. Entry fees are better in Canada, but they bought into two pass recce so the long-weekend-cost-increases still apply.

---

Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net