I don't get it, someone car to explain?

couple things...

1) No one's answered my question from before. I got a call from JVL on it and we had a great conversation, but I don't want anyone on here thinking I was just making some kiss-ass point. Its a serious question and I was hoping a few organizers on here might comment on it.


2) As a 'new guy' to the sport (I'm 33, so I didn't put 'YOUNG new guy' haha) I'm actually not too concerned with the 'costs' associated with it. I'll give you a few of my personal thoughts why.

2a) Racing is expensive, get over it. Even karting at a competitive level is expensive.

2b) I have no delusions about how expensive it will be. I chose to build an awd turbo subaru, so I know I probably chose the most expensive option I could. You will never hear me complain about how expensive my car is. I might cringe a little, but I know what I'm getting into. I made this choice because of my current financial situation (renting, good job, no kids, no wife), its either now or never.

I've been watching/reading every event in the past year, I know what they all cost...again, realistic expectations.

Even w/o a family or mortgage, I'm still making sacrifices in my daily life, I'm OK with that.


2c) I have a plan. Straight and simple. From a long-term plan to why I just bought some used DMS', everything is planned out. Shit happens, plans change, and so then I just re-plan. When I wreck this subaru, I have a plan for that. I even already know when I will stop rallying.


So why am I posting my personal crap in this thread? Because no one has answered my first question!

Because for all my planning, it won't mean shit if the events I PLAN on attending start disappearing!!!! You can say what you want about US Rallying not dying or not being dead or whatever, but I read about a lot of events barely getting by, or possibly not happening next year, or organizers quitting because of everyone's bitching or whatever.

That's what I CAN'T control, and so that's why I ask that question....because to see everyone at an event struggle EXCEPT a few guys who are living in Rally Luxury raises a lot of red flags for me. For the record, I'm NOT against big corporate sponsors....but they need to sponsor the sport, not just a car/driver.


Now, my plan is to run mostly CRS events...I think only 1 (2?) are RA events....CRS seems to be doing alright, no Ken Block or TP showing up at those events, so maybe I should just turn a blind eye and not worry about 'Rally America' events?

I could do that....yup....I could. Just say 'fuck it'......but then I wonder, when RA implodes, is that good or bad for NASA?


ALTHOUGH........IF rallying dies JUST after I finish my rally build....I DO have a plan for that.........you can get a lot of air going 70mph down Gough St. in San Francisco (ever see sean connery flying in that hum-vee in 'The Rock'?)....I WILL put this car to use!!! LOL

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2008 08:20PM by Jon Burke.

Hmmmm?

Sounds like some Rallycars might be sitting idle due to the high cost events. I bet they could use a shakedown run to keep them healthy. ( All completely lawful of course.)

For example: A bunch of Washington/Oregon RallyAnarchistas might meet up in place like Oakville for a "shakedown" run to Brooklyn. They might even agree to leave at 2-min intervals and compare notes with each other at the other end.

Gee Wally, then they might even .............

Rich Smith

Rich Smith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hmmmm?
>
> Sounds like some Rallycars might be sitting idle
> due to the high cost events. I bet they could use
> a shakedown run to keep them healthy. ( All
> completely lawful of course.)
>
> For example: A bunch of Washington/Oregon
> RallyAnarchistas might meet up in place like
> Oakville for a "shakedown" run to Brooklyn. They
> might even agree to leave at 2-min intervals and
> compare notes with each other at the other end.
>
> Gee Wally, then they might even .............
>
> Rich Smith
>
>
>

I will absolutley frickin guarantee if this were to happen, any identified participants would be keel hauled, quartered and their remains roasted over a slow fire.

heymagic Wrote:

> I will absolutley frickin guarantee if this were
> to happen, any identified participants would be
> keel hauled, quartered and their remains roasted
> over a slow fire.

Gene,

It may have been imprudent to describe such an important road, but it's well known and an easy example of how simple, cheap and fun a shakedown run with rally friends can be. If memory serves, that's how rallying got started in the firstplace. And there are plenty of other places all across America that are just as good.

Today with so many priced out of the sport it's time for a Renaissance. There is simply no substitute for the real thing. Rallycross doesn't cut it and most of us are not cereberal enough to actually enjoy TSD. It's a shame to know all those cars and unfinished projects are just sitting there. Most guys I know take local shakedown runs on there own anyway; and always have. No reason not to do it with friends. No "professionals", media, sponsors, or spectators required.

Rich Smith

I used to do this same thing all over the Grays Harbor area.

A couple years ago a rally associated individual was on the Brooklyn road on a motorcycle. High rate of speed, hit a local head on. Lots of damage to the locals vehicle. Lots of hard feelings and the roads were nearly lost because of this.

Irresponsible behavior such as this has cost us roads already. The next episode may well be the end of ever getting rally roads.

But it was fun...

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> That right there solves the problem.
> Lower entry fees will encourage competition. Do
> we really need the frills or are we going to drown
> ourselves trying to up the bar. People will
> probably hate me for saying it, but reduce the
> number of stages, but increase the stage mileage.
> Choose longer stages and run them more times. If
> a stage is under 5 miles is it worth all the
> necessary workers if you could instead have half
> the workers and run a 10 mile stage twice?

I'm starting to subscribe to this philosophy too. It would be nice if a potential organizer could go to a local government office, tell someone, "We'd like to race our cars in the boonies on a Saturday. What can we get for $3000?" If 10 cars showed up...

Suppose it was so simple and easy and fun for fun's sake that there ended up being 15 cars showing up? Then the organizer could either make the same event less expensive for those increased competitors or could go back to said gov't office and throw another $1500 on the table. "What can we get now?" And so on.

Having never actually rallied, nor organized an event, it seems to me that the number of people going to put up with the blood-sucking gas prices to get there, the ever-changing rules, and the perceived good-ol-boys club will increase as the entry fees fall.

Let the "big time" national event slide. We've got the internet and YouTube. We don't need televised coverage. It's never as good as it should be anyway. Sure, people are going to complain that it's not as big as it used to be, but aside from pants sizes here in America, what else is? We need more cars to offset more costs. Raising prices is not the answer.

We need more people building and racing rally cars. We are trying to grow a tree whilst not feeding the roots.

EDIT: Rich Smith's comments ring out loud and clear to me. Perhaps we can work something like that out here...

---

Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2008 01:17PM by DR1665.

As for long vs short stages, yes, long stages make the organizing job easier, but soemtimes there is not choice. Sandhills roads are just so long. And at RallyWV, all the long roads belong to the USNF service, and odds of getting those are close to nil, unless we get some extremely strong political connections in the Federal Gov't. (Even then, it would probably entail a long term running fight against the environmental organizations.)

Regards,
Mark B.

Anders Green Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I agree that this hasn't been discussed, but I
> disagree that lowering the cost of the car fixes
> the real problems. For the thought experiment to
> consider, begin with this:
>
> I just gave you a free rally car. Six tires/wheels
> total, no other spares. No tools, no trailer, no
> tow rig. Can you afford to go rally? Many people
> will still say "No.".
>
> Slightly modified: you already have a rally car, a
> crapload of wheels and tires, spares, tools, a
> trailer, and a tow rig. Can you afford to go
> rally? Many people will still say "No.". (This
> one, unfortunately, isn't a thought experiment.)
>
> Oh, I just had an idea. How about increasing the
> VALUE of the event to the competitor? That is, if
> you can't lower the cost, increase what you get
> for the same cost? This is a completely alternate
> approach that I don't know I've ever seen
> discussed. I can say this: the "dollar per mile
> ratio" is only a small part of the overall
> cost/value analysis that I think people make when
> they choose whether to attend a particular rally.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Anders
> (of course, for double or triple the entry fee of
> some other rally, I'd expect a LOT, not just an
> extra 40 miles)
>
> Raleigh, NC
> Impreza H6 3.0

Well, dude, I disagree wth your disagreeing! Seriously, the cost picture faced by competitors encompasses all aspects: capital (car acquisition) and operational (travel, entry fees, etc.) Different people will perceive the costs differently, just as some folks will race on their credit cards and others won't. So ignoring one aspect of this sport's cost is ignoring part of the problem, IMO.

Car costs HAVE become a problem, ESPECIALLY for new entry into the sport. It's like the H&N requirements: it hurts new entry to the sport more than anything, IMO. Car cost fall into the same class.

The biggest increases in car cost safety equipment started with the requirements to use race seats and not stock seats 10+ years back. It was followed by increased cage requirements, including empahsis on moving away from bolt-in cages. Going even further back in time, you come upon the requirements for fire suits, and before, that moving away from just roll bars. 30 years ago, you needed just a bolt-in roll bar, a fire extinguisher, 4 point harness, and a helmet. Lots of cars ran with just these basics, and folks did not get killed......

An added cost on cars is the idea planted in newcomers heads that they HAVE to have certain performance enhancements. Part of this is the fault of the newcomers: some guys just have theis idea that if they can't be top dog, it's not worht their while. That's OK by me, but it really forces you to add cost in struts/shocks and things like that. If folks were less focused on being top dog, and more focused in just having agood time, car cost can go down.

What I am trying to say is that for rally costs to go down significantly, I think we need to see if there is a middle ground for car prep and safety equipment. Right now, the divergence between rally-x and stage rally car prep and cost is a big step. Finding an intermediate formula, that is insurable, seems like a smart thing to think about. I alos think this needs to coem with an adjustment in attitude on the part of new drivers. The 'win or crash' attitude is a lot more prevavlent than it was 15+ years ago.

Regards,
Mark B.

Car building costs are more or less a one time exspense, where as entries and event/organizing costs are on going...

There is R/A & NASA for sactioning/insurance, are there other options?

It sounds like Colorado has the start of a good thing going-would be nice to hear the full system, pro's & neg's and history of how things came to be.

As long as the focus of organizers is National events the local seen is going to suffer, unless of course there is money that comes with a National that off sets the additional exspense-Gene, any idea on this? Either way the local events suffer as the national/s tends to burn-out everybody physically and financially.

I have seen & long felt the local rallies suffer and dwindle down to nothing while the organizers focues on making a National happen, to the point of local events being cancelled! Some events never to return... Funny thing is that the number of folks running a whole national series is less then 10, about 6 most of the time, why should the local 30-50 ralliest be passed over for the others?

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

>
> Well, dude, I disagree wth your disagreeing!
> Seriously, the cost picture faced by competitors
> encompasses all aspects: capital (car acquisition)
> and operational (travel, entry fees, etc.)
> Different people will perceive the costs
> differently, just as some folks will race on their
> credit cards and others won't. So ignoring one
> aspect of this sport's cost is ignoring part of
> the problem, IMO.
>
> Car costs HAVE become a problem, ESPECIALLY for
> new entry into the sport. It's like the H&N
> requirements: it hurts new entry to the sport more
> than anything, IMO. Car cost fall into the same
> class.
>
> The biggest increases in car cost safety equipment
> started with the requirements to use race seats
> and not stock seats 10+ years back. It was
> followed by increased cage requirements, including
> empahsis on moving away from bolt-in cages. Going
> even further back in time, you come upon the
> requirements for fire suits, and before, that
> moving away from just roll bars. 30 years ago, you
> needed just a bolt-in roll bar, a fire
> extinguisher, 4 point harness, and a helmet. Lots
> of cars ran with just these basics, and folks did
> not get killed......
>
> An added cost on cars is the idea planted in
> newcomers heads that they HAVE to have certain
> performance enhancements. Part of this is the
> fault of the newcomers: some guys just have theis
> idea that if they can't be top dog, it's not worht
> their while. That's OK by me, but it really forces
> you to add cost in struts/shocks and things like
> that. If folks were less focused on being top dog,
> and more focused in just having agood time, car
> cost can go down.
>
> What I am trying to say is that for rally costs to
> go down significantly, I think we need to see if
> there is a middle ground for car prep and safety
> equipment. Right now, the divergence between
> rally-x and stage rally car prep and cost is a big
> step. Finding an intermediate formula, that is
> insurable, seems like a smart thing to think
> about. I alos think this needs to coem with an
> adjustment in attitude on the part of new drivers.
> The 'win or crash' attitude is a lot more
> prevavlent than it was 15+ years ago.
>
> Regards,
> Mark B.
>
>
>
All very good points and a great post!!

The thing is that a little exspense cutting here and a little there and costs start coming down, the more they come down the more affordable things become. If we can do this and get more events, even short ones 10-20 miles, happening every 3-4 weeks for 6-8 events then more folks can see the value of getting involved from inside the car.

I think something of this sort should be our collective goal!

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

I've alway felt that we chafe most those things we have least control over, we're ARE 'Mericuns after all, we don't like compulsion (some of us don't, 1/2 the country seems to need to surrender their decision making to people that "Talk tough" about "Freedom"â„¢ and 'terr'ists' but thankfully those who surrender their choices to Authority figures have begun to figure out that they get screwed just like any decent right thinking Leftist who loves Freedom).

So thinking of this "we bitch about the feeling of not have any control--or say in stuff)" Lets look what I have in my control:

Car? I can choose to OH WAIT! I have ONLY run freebie cars. CHOICE!
Prep? I bought used equipment including reall rally box with lsd, flywheel/clutch/ heads, carbie, oil cooler, springs, shocks, exhaust headers, sump guard mounts, wheels, TIRES. CHOICE!

Transport: last van was 800 bucks and ran for 3 years , sold for 1850, flipped that dough into a 88 Diesel van with SPECIFICALLY a manual box CHOICE! for 25% better milage. CHOICE!

Tires for van: carefully watching wrecking yard= damn near new for $50 CHOICE!

Motel on the road: NO. drive straight thrugh. CHOICE!

Motel at event: Pile on 6-8 to a room. CHOICE!

Food on event: Grocery store for whole wheat bread, good cold cuts, fruit etc, and TEA Choice!

Romper suit and helmet: Whatever cheap with right approval CHOICE!

Money for "entry" allegedly to "insurance and sancition fees". 8(

No choice
No say in why
No idea why
No alternative except to be a cute boy that catches Havirs eye so he pays all your expenses, so no CHOICE

We can and I have skrimped on even where i live and what I drive as a street car by CHOICE, but I have no choice in the cost of entry.

And nothing but vague allusions to "high costs" to understand where the $50,000 to whatever goes to since NOBODY EVER DARES PUBLISH AN OFFICIAL ACCOUNTING of AN EVENTS COSTS, so we're just supposed to TAKE IT or LEAVE IT.


'member you either Love Freedom or you're with the terrists.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Gene,

Concern for the safety of others is always a basic adult responsibility.

That being said, it does not follow that people who may have been associated with "sanctioned" rallys should avoid going into the woods at other times.

The fact remains that "organized" rallys have become out of financial reach for most people that would like to get out into the woods with a rallycar. The "organized" roads are already lost to us. Motorcycles, quads, snomobiles, mountain bikes and jeeps are all examples of other groups that have managed to find a way. We can too.

Nobody should feel theatened by this natural outcome of the organizational strategies of past 20 years.

Rich Smith

Rich,

One of the consistent comments I have gotten from the RallyMoto guys here in the east is that finally they have roads that are really closed so they can go full out without worrying about a head-on into a car or truck. They are relieved to not be running 'under the radar'. As for snowmobilers and such, the 'safe(safer?)' events are the ones on closed roads and courses.

I think the idea of low-profiling organizing of rallies has a lot of visceral appeal. But is has a lot of dangers and problems, and I feel your comments show a lack of appreciation of them.

Do you really want to be responsible for someone's death by orgainzing such a run? Unfortunately, many folks don't want to allow themselves to think of this; it's kind of like drunk driving....it's easy to think you will get away with it, and you probably will.....but someone will get badly hurt or killed. Do you REALLY want to be a part of that?

And, when this shit hits the fan with local authorities, you will have created a situation where you give no alternative for the mainline rally organizers to be opposed to you, to save what they have worked so hard to create. Is that what you really want?

Mark B.

Jon, although I've only been out west for 2 years, from what I can tell the CRS is quite healthy and you'll have a venue to run your car when its done.

Now just get off your ass and finish the build so we can start seeing you at events!

Eddie Fiorelli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jon, although I've only been out west for 2 years,
> from what I can tell the CRS is quite healthy and
> you'll have a venue to run your car when its done.
>
>
> Now just get off your ass and finish the build so
> we can start seeing you at events!
>
>

true, but I thought quartzite was on the brink (?), and I know Laughlin had issues...I"m glad to see that's still around this year. hope it is next year. At the rate I'm going, I'll be able to do more than what I originally planed '09.

I wish Gorman did more than one year, great venue, and just over 300 miles from me.

I'll see you at NNR if you're going....crewing for Chris and Kris M.

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/