I don't get it, someone car to explain?

frumby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WOW! JV...You're in the airlines hiring loop
> almost like me! Yup...word on the street is UPS
> is hiring pilots. They're a pretty good company
> to work for and they pay very well. That would be
> awesome to get hired by them.

Uh I wus stinkin sumpin more like-a dis:

8)

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Regarding sanction costs, one thing I remember hearing from last year when it was investigated as to whether the lake superior mini coef 1 rally should be an RA or NASA event (rallymoto was the reasoning behind seeking nasa sanction) was that RA wanted $xx per car for sanction/insurance while nasa had a flat $xxxx rate (I dont remember the numbers, but the magnitude of the x's is accurate I think.) Obviously for a small event it was better to go with the per car insurance because that way no matter if you get 1-50 cars the insurance/sanction fees will be covered. With 13 cars and the nasa insurance it would have been a lot more than the $90-100 entry fee that it was under RA insurance.

heymagic Wrote:

.
>.
>
> We need to grow the entry fields to lower costs
> per car.

Agreed, smaller events more frequent, coeffient 1 events run in an afternoon.


The expense is so high right now that
> point may be in the past. We need possibly less
> events with greater numbers.

I totally disagree, we need more smaller one day events that are 20 maybe 40 stage miles long in 1 or 2 stages. No notes, no recce, run and go home. Fewer events makes building or buying a car more exspensive, makes HAN and belts and suit and helmet more exspensive. Fewer events makes getting into the sport seem very exspensive and pointless.

We need cheaper events more often to make folks justify the exspense to get into the sport!


If we make a bigger
> economical impact in an area then maybe road fees
> will go down or new roads will open up. We
> definitely need to work events we are not
> competing in.

I agree, more events make more fiscal impact. Want to play have to work, on a small event competitors could even be split into 2 groups, work with one group and run with another...

Too many drivers and crew never
> bother to help when they aren't competing. They'll
> show at tech to snoop around, go spectate at
> couple of stages and that's it. Others always show
> up to work a stage and help. We can't rightfully
> expect others to come out stand in the rain, sun,
> dust, snow, night so we can have fun if we don't
> care enough to do it ourselves.
>
> We also need to make a better effort to keep cars
> in competition condition. We always figure on
> losing around 5 entries before the start. You read
> it all the time...6 months since last event...new
> motor on Wed, blows up on Thurs, no make tech on
> Friday...constant issue. Lose 5 entries and
> there's about $2k gone from the old budget.
>
> Road fees, equipment expenses, fuel, route
> books,lodging, other paper work and postage,
> permit fees, sanction fees, porta potties,
> trophies, dinner, sometimes t-shirts, medics,
> ambulance, security.
>
If we can do small events what could be cut out? Lodging? Dinner? What size route book would be needed? If events could happen very close to stage start then it's possible that the route book would be only a few pages and we would not need an actual book? What else?

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

^ I've mentioned it before, so I'll mention it again. We need to bring back hillclimbs.

"Want to play have to work, on a small event competitors could even be split into 2 groups, work with one group and run with another... "

that right there is an excellent example of how hillclimbs can and do work, we just need gravel/dirt ones back in the NW

Sean, along your thoughts...smaller events are great. I like them. The problem is that when you get the 2nd day "free" from the sanctioning body. People think they need to run the extra 60-70 miles. So somewhere it's been decided 2 day events are a better bargain. yes you get more miles for the $500 entry but, the cost of fuel, tires, rooms, food , road damage all go up...a bunch. Then you have to rely on voluteers for a 2nd day. People are so busy nowadays, many work 6 days a week just to make ends meet. So instead of saying we need less events, maybe I should say less two day , big deal events.

We used to do one day events and seemed to have fun.

Jon Burke Wrote:
> why can't
> they make a rule that segregates what type of
> competitor you are, where your source funds
> dictate your entry fee?
> ie.
> 'the high roller competitor'
> 'the mid range competitor'
> 'grass roots competitor'

Good question Jon. Here's your answer:

They already do this. Pay the extra $400 or whatever, and you get listed in the national results. There's your "high roller" or "mid range" competitors. There is clearly a market for it, as more than half of the STPR field has decided that spending this extra money is something they want to do, yet only about 10% are truly "national" competitors. If people keep wanting to buy it, I'm sure they'll keep selling it.

Cheers,
Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> frumby Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > WOW! JV...You're in the airlines hiring
> loop
> > almost like me! Yup...word on the street is
> UPS
> > is hiring pilots. They're a pretty good
> company
> > to work for and they pay very well. That
> would be
> > awesome to get hired by them.
>
> Uh I wus stinkin sumpin more like-a dis:
>
> 8)
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca


Ummmm....how much horsepower do those things have??? Maybe with a blower and the right tires that could be some fun!!

Anders Green Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jon Burke Wrote:
> > why can't
> > they make a rule that segregates what type
> of
> > competitor you are, where your source funds
> > dictate your entry fee?
> > ie.
> > 'the high roller competitor'
> > 'the mid range competitor'
> > 'grass roots competitor'
>
> Good question Jon. Here's your answer:
>
> They already do this.

Hey silly guy he's suggesting something like you see in WRC if you read the Supps for them:
If you enter the event there's box you fill in for "Entrant", then the boxes for driver and co-driver. if you are the driver/co-driver AND the ENTRANT you pay whatever.
If the entrant is "Sal Canaille Palais de Boum Boum" or "Sububitchy World Rally Team" then you pay A HUGE AMOUNT more recognising that the value of a result for a "Big ass team" is worth something extra. Been that way for ever.
Kinda like aprogressive income tax, make sense but then again they're all gawd-fersaken cheese eating Commie surrender monkeys, and even if the have hundreds of entries in their events, what the hell do they know?




Pay the extra $400 or
> whatever, and you get listed in the national
> results. There's your "high roller" or "mid range"
> competitors. There is clearly a market for it, as
> more than half of the STPR field has decided that
> spending this extra money is something they want
> to do, yet only about 10% are truly "national"
> competitors. If people keep wanting to buy it, I'm
> sure they'll keep selling it.

It could be as EVERY single person I talked to in 5 years out in the NE say: "Well the Regional event is shorter, so short that it's not enough seat time with so few events, so I enter the full National to get a decent amount of miles"

100%.

When I wonder aloud as I tend to do, wondering "Gee out West, we ALWAYS go the full distance in the dual Club/Divisional/Regionals as the National?"Pro" rally, so most of us normal guys don't bother to PAY A WHOLE SHITLOAD more just to appear on the bogus "Pro-Rally" results. A cynical person might suggest that the STPR crew and other Natoinals who shortchange the Club guys, are aware of the desire for LOTS of miles, and "entice" guys to enter the "National" so the crews can get decent--sort of if 90 minutes to 100 minutes can be considered decent, mileage.

Again just thinking of one reasonable possible explanation.
>
> Cheers,
> Anders
>
> Raleigh, NC
> Impreza H6 3.0

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
A
> cynical person might suggest that the STPR crew
> and other Natoinals who shortchange the Club guys,
> are aware of the desire for LOTS of miles, and
> "entice" guys to enter the "National" so the crews
> can get decent--sort of if 90 minutes to 100
> minutes can be considered decent, mileage.
>
> Again just thinking of one reasonable possible
> explanation.
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca
And at STPR, a cynical person would be wrong. The regional people get all the stage miles the national people do. Just at a lower entry fee. Likewise at 100 Acre Wood. Other events have been different.

---

RichardM

Sofa King Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sean,
> I haven't yet entered an event, but if I was to
> run Wild West ($700 late entry fee), I would have
> to work about 45 1/2 hours to pay for it (after
> our uncle takes his cut).
> For comparison, it takes me 30 hours each month to
> pay rent.
>
> I believe that I make about average wages for
> skilled labor.
>
> Kevin Hawkinson
> Seattle, WA
> 83 Volvo 240 Gp5 (in progress)
> 34-ish


Thanks Kevin, this is an important post that most folks blew by or something, I suggest re-reading it, then think about what is being said. The number of hours worked does not include the cost of going to work to earn the monies, which runs up the number of hours worked more... This aside entry fees have gone up disproportionately, they've even out paced the cost of fuel that everyone is suffering from!

I'd also like to add that many events have higher entry fees then the $700, please think about it, how are younger folks going to get involved at this kind of earning to exspense ratio..

We have to figure out away to cut cost and get more events or suffer a continued wasted sport!

Maybe we can get this thread back on track and disuss solutions???????

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

SEANT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Thanks Kevin, this is an important post that most
> folks blew by or something, I suggest re-reading
> it, then think about what is being said. The
> number of hours worked does not include the cost
> of going to work to earn the monies, which runs up
> the number of hours worked more... This aside
> entry fees have gone up disproportionately,
> they've even out paced the cost of fuel that
> everyone is suffering from!
>
> I'd also like to add that many events have higher
> entry fees then the $700, please think about it,
> how are younger folks going to get involved at
> this kind of earning to exspense ratio..
>
> We have to figure out away to cut cost and get
> more events or suffer a continued wasted sport!
>
> Maybe we can get this thread back on track and
> disuss solutions???????

In my honest opinion.. aside from some miracle that makes the insurance or safety bit subside considerably.. the only REAL thing that can be done to lower REAL costs that hasn't been discussed would be lowering the costs of the car.

What about a mini-mass produced rally chassis. As in instead of everyone picking their car of choice.. stripping it, caging it yadda yadda.. a shop somewhere does a bunch of chassis.

Have a floor pan that's "fixed" for rally, build a cage on it.. cut the floor out of an existing stripped shell, drop on top of new floor and cage weld up and ship out.

Sure this cuts down on the whole individualism of picking and building a car.. but you could possibly end up with caged shells with "fixed" suspension locations etc for under 4k if done properly.

Of course shipping would become a problem.

Sure you might be able to do it yourself for less. But that takes time.. time that your not working or time your not spending with your family.. or what have you.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

hudson Wrote:


>
> In my honest opinion.. aside from some miracle
> that makes the insurance or safety bit subside
> considerably.. the only REAL thing that can be
> done to lower REAL costs that hasn't been
> discussed would be lowering the costs of the car.
>
> What about a mini-mass produced rally chassis. As
> in instead of everyone picking their car of
> choice.. stripping it, caging it yadda yadda.. a
> shop somewhere does a bunch of chassis.
>
> Have a floor pan that's "fixed" for rally, build a
> cage on it.. cut the floor out of an existing
> stripped shell, drop on top of new floor and cage
> weld up and ship out.

Dude have you noticed that I have been pushing a single type of car, to wit RWD cars and further that I'm making parts such as Towers, mounting ears, shock mounts etc that can be welded into or onto any "conventional" rwd car such as Volvo 140/240/740 or Toyota Corolla, or Rx7, or...or......?
Notice did you that the whole weld on deal to the front knuckle allows us to use the same strut housing in a big variety of cars?

Doesn't have to be a single floor and who has the CAPITAL do to the floors and who has the skills to weld in these floors.
Towers can be welded into existing cars, but the big thing is everybody WANTS to do their own choice even if I politely point out how unsuitable IN THE LONG RUN a 90" wheelbase POS this or that is.
>
> Sure this cuts down on the whole individualism of
> picking and building a car.. but you could
> possibly end up with caged shells with "fixed"
> suspension locations etc for under 4k if done
> properly.
>
> Of course shipping would become a problem.
>
> Sure you might be able to do it yourself for less.
> But that takes time.. time that your not working
> or time your not spending with your family.. or
> what have you.
>

CAPITAL!!! CHOICE! this is wroing headed, sorry doooooood.
> Andrew McNally
> Hamilton ON
> 28

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

hudson Wrote:
> In my honest opinion.. aside from some miracle
> that makes the insurance or safety bit subside
> considerably.. the only REAL thing that can be
> done to lower REAL costs that hasn't been
> discussed would be lowering the costs of the car.

I agree that this hasn't been discussed, but I disagree that lowering the cost of the car fixes the real problems. For the thought experiment to consider, begin with this:

I just gave you a free rally car. Six tires/wheels total, no other spares. No tools, no trailer, no tow rig. Can you afford to go rally? Many people will still say "No.".

Slightly modified: you already have a rally car, a crapload of wheels and tires, spares, tools, a trailer, and a tow rig. Can you afford to go rally? Many people will still say "No.". (This one, unfortunately, isn't a thought experiment.)

Oh, I just had an idea. How about increasing the VALUE of the event to the competitor? That is, if you can't lower the cost, increase what you get for the same cost? This is a completely alternate approach that I don't know I've ever seen discussed. I can say this: the "dollar per mile ratio" is only a small part of the overall cost/value analysis that I think people make when they choose whether to attend a particular rally.

Cheers,
Anders
(of course, for double or triple the entry fee of some other rally, I'd expect a LOT, not just an extra 40 miles)

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Anders Green Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Slightly modified: you already have a rally car, a
> crapload of wheels and tires, spares, tools, a
> trailer, and a tow rig. Can you afford to go
> rally? Many people will still say "No.". (This
> one, unfortunately, isn't a thought experiment.)
>
> Oh, I just had an idea. How about increasing the
> VALUE of the event to the competitor? That is, if
> you can't lower the cost, increase what you get
> for the same cost? This is a completely alternate
> approach that I don't know I've ever seen
> discussed. I can say this: the "dollar per mile
> ratio" is only a small part of the overall
> cost/value analysis that I think people make when
> they choose whether to attend a particular rally.

I agree and you make a great point that it's not simply the car.

If you could get enough people into ~10k cars close enough together, then things would likely be different. The absolute costs still matter no matter how much "value" one gets from it.

It's no secret that in motorsports you pay $$$ to go faster.. so what about a rule, much like at folkraces in Sweden (I believe) that by entering you agree that you would sell your car for X if offered. While I'm sure this rule doesn't get evoked very often, it would limit crazy wild spending.

My whole point is that if average joes could see themselves being competitive in a class with other competitors in it, that would give you your added value.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dude have you noticed that I have been pushing a
> single type of car, to wit RWD cars and further
> that I'm making parts such as Towers, mounting
> ears, shock mounts etc that can be welded into or
> onto any "conventional" rwd car such as Volvo
> 140/240/740 or Toyota Corolla, or Rx7,
> or...or......?
> Notice did you that the whole weld on deal to the
> front knuckle allows us to use the same strut
> housing in a big variety of cars?
>
> Doesn't have to be a single floor and who has the
> CAPITAL do to the floors and who has the skills to
> weld in these floors.
> Towers can be welded into existing cars, but the
> big thing is everybody WANTS to do their own
> choice even if I politely point out how unsuitable
> IN THE LONG RUN a 90" wheelbase POS this or that
> is.

I've noticed and think what you do is essential. I know that everyone rallying in a few models of car is kind of boring.. but it would bring a lot of costs in line. If there were only 2-3 models of cars running then, there could be many economies introduced..

And I thought the whole idea was playing in the woods not being supervised by your mother.. so what if there wasn't a wide variety of cars in the field as long as it was a massive field?

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish