Historic Class - why isn't it offered and why do organizers think it's an add-on to an existing class?

Since we've been campaigning our SAAB built specificly for Historic Rally, we've come up against a lot of misunderstandings about how the class is described in the Rally America rule book. The two issues I have with how the class is treated are:

That it's an optional class that does not have to be offered along with all the other classes.

That it's not really a class, but an adjective to add on to any other accepted class.

Here's the snippet from the RA rule book describing the classes.



My questions to Rally America event organizers, or maybe to Rally America themselves, are:

Are you allowed by RA to pick and choose what classes are acceptable at events?

Why are you not accepting cars into the Historic class?

Why force Historic cars into another class when there is already a class for them?

As an aside, I've spoken to a number of people that seem to know what's going on and are familar with rally and the RA rule book and they INSIST that Historic isn't a class, but only an add-on description to any other class.

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Jason McDaniel

Looks like a class to me, but it sucks to be the only one in your class sometimes. Ankeny beats up on G2 in his Saab at PNW events.

would my Rx7 be historic? where is the defining lines>

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First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Your RX7 would be Historic if you prepared it as it was raced 25 years ago.

MY view of Historic is in line with the rulebook. It's NOT a trophy chase, or a place to bring a 25.1 year old car to beat up on the 45 year old cars. It's a place to enjoy a vintage car with vintage style prep.

To quote the rulebook, again, on the purpose and intent of the Historic class...

Quote

11.1. PRINCIPLES
The purpose of Historic Class is to “enable the active celebration of the
History of the Motor Car” in stage rallying in America. The Historic Class
rules are intended to “preserve the specification of (the) period and prevent
the modifications of performance and behaviour which could arise through
the application of modern technology.” Furthermore, “Historic competition is
not simply another formula in which to acquire trophies, it is a discipline
apart, in which one of the essential ingredients is devotion to the cars and to
their history.”

(Quotes taken from Appendix K to the International Sporting Code of the FIA)

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Jason McDaniel

Some stuff from the RA rule book:

Quote

9.6.C.
Classes
Production, Production GT, Super Production, Open, Open Light, Group
2 and Group 5 classes will be included in the Regional Championship.

An event organizer, with prior approval from Rally America, may divide
his/her entry field into additional classes for the purposes of event
awards and/or the computation of points for independent regional
championships.

That makes it looks like Historic is not included for the regional championships. The national classes are Overall, Sp, and 2wd, so no Historic there either. Thats for championships, I dont know if there is anything explicit about classes for events.

And as far as eligibility:

Quote

11.2.
ELIGIBILITY
Cars entering Performance Rally events in Historic Class must be at least 25
years old.

Plus all the stuff about period correct modifications.

Article 11 also mentions a Historic Class Chairman, seems to be some sort of competitor leader of the historic class participants? If there is one, perhaps they would be the proper channel to bring your issues to RA?

The RA safety and operations manual says:

Quote

17. Scoring
17.1. Responsibility
It is the responsibility of the scoring crew to produce accurate scores for the
determination of the finishing order overall, in 2WD, and in each class of the rally.

That last bit, "in each class of the rally", seems that it should include historic in the scoring since its listed as a class in the rule book.

Is the problem that you're not able to enter/be scored as a Historic class car?

The rules for Historic are pretty clearly laid out in the RA rules. I think no one's pushed the case because there's just not enough historic cars for anyone to make a fuss about it.

The years we ran NNR as a RA event, we had a couple of cars that would qualify as Historic, but they didn't enter that way and we didn't ask. We could have tracked them as a separate class, but the question just never came up.

BTW, both my Golfs are technically historic, but I never enter them that way. Partly because I don't think of them as historic, and partly because I don't want to race in a class by myself.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

Quote
Carl S
...Is the problem that you're not able to enter/be scored as a Historic class car?

That's exactly the issue.

RA offers a Historic class. I have a car built for that class (basicly exhibition, not competition). But it's not recognized as a Historic car by the organizers.

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Jason McDaniel

when we started building our 70s capri, we looked into, and discussed it being built as historic, but the having to be built to the period, left its owner not wanting to spend $$ to not be competitive.... and from what i remember, RA told him that it would fall under 2wd: historic, so yes, a subclass of 2wd... just as quattro would fall under open: historic, if prepped to its period.. it was most likely another one of their "next big thing to save rally" scheems... im sure some one said "remember the golden days of rally.. and the crowds, and the big factory money?" and some one else said "lets bring all the old cars back...that will save rally".....

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I be sorry as a muthafucka I did, still sorry I did n' hustled ta peep what tha fuck I holla'd a lil' bit better, or at least try to.

"Historic class has always been some pipe dream fantasy for guys that want atterntion just for cruising around on the same day as guys trying to go fast as they can..

Last I paid any attention to anything about "Historic" class in America it was the ravings of some Ohio proctologist, he'd bought an ex Pete Lahn, ex Mike Whitman 510, and he volunteered ---before ever doing a single event----to "draft the rules for the class"..
Great so another person onot even yet involved other than buying a car having sweet fawk all to do with the class decides he's going to write the rules..
Utter and total cluster fuck..

He was blabbering drug induced fantasies about luring some of the hundreds of FIA Appendix whatever guys over to our obscure little events with 21 cars...
Yeah right.. Somebody who gors to Historic Monte Carlo, Parc Ferme in Monaco, real stages with 50 years of historic, 350 car entries, and cars prepped often better than "in the day" and they're going to want to come and fawkin putter down the road just for the pleasure of hanging out with the good doctor and his procologist wife and presumably discuss the finer points of repairing mid-west brown spiders. Right..

The hilarious thing was that the new "ex-spurt"---wait he was a total noob---that means he couldn't yet be a ex-spurt,...what comes before an ex-spurt?

OK The "pre-spurt" is all hot to adjust FIA Appendix whatever as little as possible, so he's all engorged about a 1975 cut off date because of "technology" was so much different later...."

I very politely ask---now look, obviously the guy was another man with all the answers PUTZ...so I know dipwads like this who have had their own way in their little worlds regard any question as an ultimate challenge so I'm trying my best to ask questions which will help educate him about a time period that he obviously, painfully obviously know jack shit about---so i as what was different later than 75 that you want to avoid...can't even remember whatever busllshit he came back with---and I have a remearkably good memory usually--for important stuff..

Whatever it was it was bullshit and wrong..

The CRUX of the bullshit was this slipery phrase "only mods in the spirit of the times"..
Coupled with "a commttee of (who? similar nincompoops like HIM<!!!??) whoever will decide if a particular modification "is in the spirit of the era"

Well who the fawk knows anybody active in real Stage rally back then


Aside from me? ( I have met and yacked with a few guys active at rather elite levels all the way back to the late 60s.. Freindly guys, and more than a little loosie goosie crazy...Hmmmmm)

And, "mods in the spirit".....well does that mean "mods" what an Ohio Proctologist might have thunk up back then

or a guy who was back then already modding brakes on race or rally car---or moto-cross bikes ? (I ask cause when I decided that the available shoes on my 1969 Historic car were ka-ka and it would be silly money to get cutom shows--and decided to go to disc brakes, I just used that old anciet Timken catalog, found to taper roller bearinsg for $5.60 each, grabbed some 1969 Saab 99 rear discs and hubs and calipers and threw them on in a half an afternoon..

I asked the genius if he thought his car was the kind of car that would fill the big new thing class?

Yeah his car was ideal: a 70-71 Datsum 510...Disc braked rear, a R180 LSD, a hybrid L-series head on a KA24E bottom end=--- oh wait a bottom end not invented until 20 years later than his car was...and only 800cc--or 50% larger than the engine that came in his car

That was OK, but a 1980 Volvo with a SOHC B21 was "too much technology different" from an identical 1974 Volvo 240 with a B21..

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Again 'cause we don't like to think to much we have a Classics class.

Won't bore you all with the rules but the basic gist of it is, if the cars old enough and good mostly the right bits/ look the part and can chuck rocks you can enter.

The run at the front of the field (I think entry limit is 20cars) Sweep the road a bit for the guys playing for keeps and wake up the crowd. All whilst having fun and generally avoiding bullshit rules, it's a place for those that want to run their old cars for fun(but generally not slowly cruising around) To play.

Check the entry list for our first round, there was at least one ex Australian champion entered and if stage times are compared they often run in the top 5-10 of the national class.
The guys that run have the funds and were/are quick enough but they don't want to run a modern car at 11 tenths everywhere.

Zoom zoom!

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

Quote
buerckner
Again 'cause we don't like to think to much we have a Classics class.



Check the entry list for our first round, there was at least one ex Australian champion entered and if stage times are compared they often run in the top 5-10 of the national class.
The guys that run have the funds and were/are quick enough but they don't want to run a modern car at 11 tenths everywhere.

Yeah Classic/ or Historic gets interchanged here. I don't know how many here know that the real "Historic" class requireds the shell or some part of the shell have "documented compertition history" from back in the day or some such pointless crap.

The thing is by the "Classic standard virtually every signle car i ever worked on except 2 for damn near 20 years at that point (early 2000s) had been pre 1980 and this esteamed Herr Doktor got quite pissed when a kept pressing "What is so different about a 1975 typical spec and a 1985 typical spec.."
And I meant details: valve sizes, clutch sizes, gear ratuios, final drive, suspension ..

Of courser the guy didn't know a single thing but he made little balls of his fist and stamped the ground and said
"What have YOU ever done to support Classic cars in US Rally?"

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Lots of problems lurking on this one.
There are no specific rules, just generalities.
A rolling qualifying age.
Enforcement of the mystery rules.
Lack of participation. The NW has offered the class before and no one entered.
Why??

Historic,vintage,classic...just plain old. Fine, build an old car and deal with it. 1/2 the 2wds are old cars in this country and seem to be coping. Anyone with an Escort or BDA powered anything will spank the class anyway. Buy a legitimate vintage rally car with provenance and you might have an arguement. Keep the qualifying date old enough to be legitimate. Vintage should be pre70 like road racing classes.

The sport isn't big enough for 4 or 5 2wd classes. We don't need a gold start for everyone as JV always says.

V/H/C cars always get their share of attention from the fans at parc ferme and spectator areas. Suck it up and call it good.

I suspect that as computers play more and more of a role in vehicle management, and as EPA rules get tighter, there will be less and less that the enthusiast is able to do to the cars and still have them be street legal - to the point where it may become impossible to get a registration/insurance if they've been modified.

In that case, I suspect we'll either see rally's form change somewhat, or we'll see a booming interest in older cars for the sport.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

Hoche, having an old tub is not "Historic". You can take a '65 Mustang shell and drop a turbocharged Duratec engine into it. That's a good idea and with some chassis work it could be fun and competitive. And it wouldn't break emissions rules in most locations. Even body parts are plentiful because for an old car it's relatively popular and both good and cheap reproductions are available.

But if you wanted that car to run in Historic, it would have to have a 289 in it. Because that was how it was prepared during the time it ran.

I agree that using an older tub makes sense for rallyist that are determined to build a car. Particularly if you are really going to BUILD a car and not just bolt on ready-to-go parts.

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Jason McDaniel