Historic Class - why isn't it offered and why do organizers think it's an add-on to an existing class?

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heymagic
But...we need to do away with the Rally truck class, haven't seen one in years. GpN is gone as is GpA. P class needs to be done away with also, even though there are a few of those, most are just old beaters because people don't want to spend any money on performance and get the gold star for finishing well in an under subsrcibed class. Dead last and first in class is still dead last in my book.

I believe there was one truck running last year... Think was Ojibwe.. Maybe LSPR..

How about we just have 3 simple competition classes: 1: open, 2: open light 3: production, each with 2 sub groups... awd and 2wd Basically turbo and big displacement NA say...3.4L and bigger.. would be in open, anything non turbo, and NA under 3.3999L in open light.. Ya fall where u fall, build to suit.. And if u want to come run the road, in an approved "classic" car, for just fun.. Not points... Come out, sweep the road, put on a show..

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I be sorry as a muthafucka I did, still sorry I did n' hustled ta peep what tha fuck I holla'd a lil' bit better, or at least try to.

You just answered your own question. "Anders hold a rally closer to Texas (In my neighborhood so I don't have to tow too far) and I will".
If you want the class, be prepared to tow to 5 or so events to get others more involved and worth it to organizers.
The reason the class hasn't prospered..Nobody Gives a Shit. What little manufacture money exists is only for current models.(Subaru,Ford,Mazda and I think Mitsubishi in Canada).
Most of the manufactures whose cars would be involved, don't exist anymore...SAAB (96,99,900),Datsun (240Z,510,610,710) BMC (Austin,MG,Triumph).
The Ford,Vauxhall,Porsche etc that run as Historics in Europe cost $150,000+ which is out of reach for all but 1 or 2 of US competitors.
The truck I Co-Drive for Bill Holmes is a 1976 or so frame with 2011 body work, registered as a '76 for the following reason...
1- CA Emissions testing...exempt due to age.
2 -Ford markets current models for sale, not 25 year old vehicles, and pays contingency for winning results in those vehicles, so '11 Raptor bodywork.
Win on Sunday Sell on Monday.
We could run in Historic with the old body, but why loose out on contingency money?

Sean Gallagher

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2WD...Less Traction More Action!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2013 01:53AM by stgallagher.

I would run my bug in historic if there was some competition and there was some sort of regional championship. Sadly there isn't.

Much better in my mind to run in a class where there are competitors... and it's G2

I'm ok with you pushing the issue with RA, although I don't think having an H on the registration will get more historic competitors out in the woods. But, maybe I'm wrong.

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heymagic
But...we need to do away with the Rally truck class, haven't seen one in years. GpN is gone as is GpA. P class needs to be done away with also, even though there are a few of those, most are just old beaters because people don't want to spend any money on performance and get the gold star for finishing well in an under subsrcibed class. Dead last and first in class is still dead last in my book.

Related to this topic, for the second year in a row, there have been _zero_ Production class cars entered at Sandblast. (and that's in any of the three possible production classes) Everyone was in some sort of open 2wd or open awd. Going back 3 years, there was _one_.

People build and race what they want. The way series and contingencies are set up certainly effect that. Production cars, in my area, are not what they want, even though that option is certainly on the entry list as an option. Just having it as an option clearly has done nothing as far as building participation. This sort of thing needs promotion, and I'm not talking about money or sponsors, it needs people to get excited about it for some reason, and then shout it to the world. Continuously.

I'm with you on RallyTruck class Gene, toss it. I've run one, and I just had it compete at the rally this past weekend, so I feel like I have an opinion based in experience on this topic. And the current rallytruck pilots are happy enough running under the normal 2WD classes anyway.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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mke723
How about we just have 3 simple competition classes: 1: open, 2: open light 3: production, each with 2 sub groups... awd and 2wd Basically turbo and big displacement NA say...3.4L and bigger.. would be in open, anything non turbo, and NA under 3.3999L in open light.

Congratulations, you've just invented the NASA classes.

Pretty much, although P is broken down into 3, not 2, and there are a couple modifiers on the displacements, but otherwise yeah, welcome to NRS.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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mke723

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heymagic
But...we need to do away with the Rally truck class, haven't seen one in years. GpN is gone as is GpA. P class needs to be done away with also, even though there are a few of those, most are just old beaters because people don't want to spend any money on performance and get the gold star for finishing well in an under subsrcibed class. Dead last and first in class is still dead last in my book.

I believe there was one truck running last year... Think was Ojibwe.. Maybe LSPR..

How about we just have 3 simple competition classes: 1: open, 2: open light 3: production, each with 2 sub groups... awd and 2wd Basically turbo and big displacement NA say...3.4L and bigger.. would be in open, anything non turbo, and NA under 3.3999L in open light.. Ya fall where u fall, build to suit.. And if u want to come run the road, in an approved "classic" car, for just fun.. Not points... Come out, sweep the road, put on a show..

Those 3 classes already exist. G2/G5 fall into open but are 2WD.

The three classes you need... Overall, Open Light, 2WD. DONE! And even Open Light is a stretch of it's own. There are plenty of guys in Open Light cars that put the pressure on open class cars and gain overall wins at events. Then, like Anders said, if you can get 5+ people to come up with their own class and actually show up to several events then you can consider making a new class. Regional scoring is too much like autocross where everybody seems to get a podium finish and a trophy. But we need to start with LESS classes. Smaller events that are closer to competitors at lower costs. Get more people out doing shit instead of building a car in their garage because they feel they need it.

I would be more up for regional classes limit modifications on 2WD cars. Basically remove high dollar items. Basically ban dog/sequential transmissions so a regional guy never has to think about spending $7000+ on their car when they should be running events.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2013 10:11AM by BillyElliot.

Billy modifications does not always mean high dollars...
The diff---the whole rear diff assembly---cost me under $33 for a diff unit with a LSD and a correct final drive.. a simple mod or two and it bolts in... I have in the garage a Borg Warner T5 with ratios perfect for a turbo 2,0 to 2,3 motor and it cost $200..

Limiting things means rules, rules means somebody has to make them up and there's the rub..forever in America---and obviously Canada as well, people have been making more and more rules and the more they think up, the more chance there is for unintended consequences..and poor outcomes.

Less rules. Less classes. more incentives, less coercion.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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john vanlandingham
Billy modifications does not always mean high dollars...
The diff---the whole rear diff assembly---cost me under $33 for a diff unit with a LSD and a correct final drive.. a simple mod or two and it bolts in... I have in the garage a Borg Warner T5 with ratios perfect for a turbo 2,0 to 2,3 motor and it cost $200..

Limiting things means rules, rules means somebody has to make them up and there's the rub..forever in America---and obviously Canada as well, people have been making more and more rules and the more they think up, the more chance there is for unintended consequences..and poor outcomes.

Less rules. Less classes. more incentives, less coercion.

Well that's the thing and whoever made the point. Much easier to turbo motors to get the power levels we want than to build some NA screamer. RWD is easier to get the final drive/diff options because you just bolt some other rear end to your car.

I do think that less classes is the first thing that's easy to do. From that you just lump it into 2WD and let people have at it. But not allowing stuff like sequential transmissions or external reservoir dampers just gets people thinking simple. Someone made the point that you can't really ban adjustable dampers because those with the $$$ will go test on an adjustable set and then revalve their non-adjustables to the setting they want. But I still don't really see anyone on the regional level doing that yet.

Really, road racing B-Spec rules have it right. Take a truely stock car, throw a cage in it, put non-adjustable and non-external reservoit dampers on it and go racing. The problem with the b-spec rules in rally is that they build to production levels of prep. So now you're adding stitch welding, LSD so you need to crack open the trans, you can run any suspension so now instead of a $2000 non-adjustable suspension you'll run an $8000 Reiger damper set or even up to $20,000 Ohlins.

But the open-ness is good to start, but eventually it leads to creep towards the top. Look at the RA national championship. People like Matt Johnston won it in an 140hp honda, Duplessis won it in a mild tuned MK2 Golf. Now you're up running against $70k-$100k R2 this and turbo sequential transmission that. Same goes for the overall championship. When RA first took over it was pretty much GpN cars winning the championship in h-patter dog boxes. Then it became more and more to WRC level of prep levels and custom fabrication to where all the top teams are banging sequentals with fancy custom suspension geometry tube this and tube link that.

I'm fine with lumping all of 2wd together and getting rid of G5/G2. makes sense for regional guys.

Not so sure about limiting external reservoirs. My Bilsteins shocks for the bug were super cheap.

Yeah external reservoirs maybe at weight penalties. But they don't even weigh anyone for regionals anyway...

Well, I don't see why my $150 remote reservoir shocks require a weight penalty.

(This almost deserves a topic of its own)

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johnhuebbe
Well, I don't see why my $150 remote reservoir shocks require a weight penalty.

(This almost deserves a topic of its own)

Wha? What shocks do you have on the thing?

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Grant Hughes

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johnhuebbe
Well, I don't see why my $150 remote reservoir shocks require a weight penalty.

(This almost deserves a topic of its own)

I'm just using it as an example, not picking on you. Because there are external shocks that are also tens of thousands of dollars that people seem to think they NEED on their cars. I'm not saying you can't get them cheap, much like John showed you can get LSD rear ends with decent final drives for a song.

Point is, people just need to get the fuck out on stages and race and stop bitching about how there isn't a class for their specific car or how some other guy beat them and blame it on the HP or gears or suspension. 9 times out of 10 that person is likely a better driver than they are. If we get to the point where everyone comes up with a basic car, the only blame is on yourself that you lost. Then people realize THEY need to get faster and not make the car faster.

I started with an idea to put a B16, stock trans and a diff in my car with Bilstein HD's revalved. Somehow that evolved into a floor mounted pedal assembly, extended steering wheel with a quickener, external dual adjustable shocks, close ratio gearset, etc... all because the rules let me and I said to myself, "why not?"

Several trains of thought to cover.

Less is more comes to mind. When you start restricting stuff beyond what the 'normal' guys want you are doing a good thing, mostly. Restricting remote res shocks, maybe. Sequential gearboxes yes, swapping rear axles and LSDs not so good. We kind of looked at the Spec Miata class for Brent and it quickly looked too expensive (for the return). They require certain suspension upgrades and other items, kind of like the long forgotten Focus class of NASA. I know damn well I could have set up a competitive Miata for the same money and likely less using stuff and brands I wanted to. There are reasonable limitations but no one really pushes the limits anyway and even if some rich guy came a long and spent the big money he still has to be able to drive the car and finish. Not always easy, look at KB this year.

So best for 2wd Open is to just leave it 2wd Open. Restrictive classes just coast more and more rather than less and less. When you restrict to the point you lose competitors or reliability then everyone loses.

People typically like to get an edge when they can, its human nature. They also like to have something to blame for their failures. Joe had a faster car or more tires or bigger budget or or or. Not everyone will really stand up and say it was them not being fast enough.

Hoche - I fully agree that laws are likely to make us all run "historic" cars sooner or later esp if you live in CA.

Frankly if I was going to get all FIA about a correct historic car I would keep the car in Europe and compete at events in Europe; it would provide a far better value for the money spent.

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In the long run reality always wins.