Can RWD win 2wd national events consistently?

How much better or worse would a top Group F guy do?

I would imagine that they would be in serious contention for overall victory. They take lowly Volvo 240s (for the most part) and make absolute beasts out of them. FWD may be "God's gift to rally" but over there they get crapped on. I wonder why RWD is the predominant 2WD layout of choice for them. Hmmmmm..........


Then again this is just my opinion from watching Finnish Group F.

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so by trail, i guess the answer to this thread is "yes"

---

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Fly-Half
I would imagine that they would be in serious contention for overall victory. They take lowly Volvo 240s (for the most part) and make absolute beasts out of them. FWD may be "God's gift to rally" but over there they get crapped on. I wonder why RWD is the predominant 2WD layout of choice for them. Hmmmmm..........


Then again this is just my opinion from watching Finnish Group F.

And is the Finish group F supposed to be godly? How about you enlighten us on why is a RWD the predominant choice.

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john vanlandingham
Grant just a little note. Show some respect for language and for those who are/were "factory" drivers.
Even if Subaru USA was giving him cars and paying the whole bill at Vermont Sports car, that can in no way honestly be called "a factory driver"...

And nobody believes that the deal was any different from for example Block's deal with M-sport...

Just a little correction so the poor innocent part-animal doesn't think that you're bullshitting tooooooooooooooooo much.

Those 3.0 things seem to have 240hp and 225 ft/lbs and the weight who knows, they are a big car....

Know what that car--is it Derek nelson's car---weighs?

So you reckon that is the key element? 240 hp/225 ft/lbs and ?? for gears and axle?

John, Subaru USA wasnt being run by VTcar at the time, VTcar was Mitsubishi, and Subaru USA was using Prodrive, and Prodrive was the Subaru factory team. Ramana for example went to Banbury during that period. He was a factory driver, not as much "exposure" as say the world championship guys but factory nonetheless. So there's no bullshit in Grants comments. Block's deal with Msport is just like every other deal with Msport, they're a business interested in taking people's money. Period.

As for the car, its not just a simple build, but it wouldnt matter if its RWD or FWD Ramana would still beat ACP.

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Cosworth

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Fly-Half
I would imagine that they would be in serious contention for overall victory. They take lowly Volvo 240s (for the most part) and make absolute beasts out of them. FWD may be "God's gift to rally" but over there they get crapped on. I wonder why RWD is the predominant 2WD layout of choice for them. Hmmmmm..........


Then again this is just my opinion from watching Finnish Group F.

And is the Finish group F supposed to be godly? How about you enlighten us on why is a RWD the predominant choice.

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john vanlandingham
Grant just a little note. Show some respect for language and for those who are/were "factory" drivers.
Even if Subaru USA was giving him cars and paying the whole bill at Vermont Sports car, that can in no way honestly be called "a factory driver"...

And nobody believes that the deal was any different from for example Block's deal with M-sport...

Just a little correction so the poor innocent part-animal doesn't think that you're bullshitting tooooooooooooooooo much.

Those 3.0 things seem to have 240hp and 225 ft/lbs and the weight who knows, they are a big car....

Know what that car--is it Derek nelson's car---weighs?

So you reckon that is the key element? 240 hp/225 ft/lbs and ?? for gears and axle?

John, Subaru USA wasnt being run by VTcar at the time, VTcar was Mitsubishi, and Subaru USA was using Prodrive, and Prodrive was the Subaru factory team. Ramana for example went to Banbury during that period. He was a factory driver, not as much "exposure" as say the world championship guys but factory nonetheless. So there's no bullshit in Grants comments. Block's deal with Msport is just like every other deal with Msport, they're a business interested in taking people's money. Period.

As for the car, its not just a simple build, but it wouldnt matter if its RWD or FWD Ramana would still beat ACP.

Pualinho, the kid is ASKING.
Grant and several others have been pointedly cackkling that the 1995 3.0 BMW is the near perfect car that everything is perfect on...and thus implying that people should buy and build them becuase they're perfect---or some similar bullshit..
The kid is asking what specific elements--numbers--dimeensions, etc makes it such a attractive and obvious choice

He's asking...evidently he has watch a fair amount of F-cup vids as many of us have and evidently he's impressed...as many of us are....indeed as many people worldwide seem to be...

Maybe you can splain him.

And I don't give a fuck one way or the other but Ramama had been a loyal customer of Lance Smith since his first little Golf, then his Gaylant--both of which he really did nothing worth remembering in---before he was suddenly announced out of the clear blue as SRTUSA driver...
remarkable only because of the prior "not even memorable" results.
Maybe the term "factory driver" means something different in CAR motorsport than it did in what I did..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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Cosworth

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Fly-Half
I would imagine that they would be in serious contention for overall victory. They take lowly Volvo 240s (for the most part) and make absolute beasts out of them. FWD may be "God's gift to rally" but over there they get crapped on. I wonder why RWD is the predominant 2WD layout of choice for them. Hmmmmm..........


Then again this is just my opinion from watching Finnish Group F.

And is the Finish group F supposed to be godly? How about you enlighten us on why is a RWD the predominant choice.

I never said it was godly but as a whole they are better than what 'Murica has to offer. I mean think of all the Dubya Arsey champions that have come out of Finland. I mean that is the elite level or rallying methinks. Even on an amateur club level watching Group F events and seeing those guys drive. Then watching Rally America and seeing the competitors go through the stages on those videos (I'm only comparing the 2WD classes here). Obviously there is disparity of overall talent between the two sides.

At the end of the day, my opinion on why RWD is the predominant choice over there is irrelevant as I'm not Finnish nor a competitor in Group F therefore I'm not privy to what that answer is in the first place. It's difficult to achieve a higher level of conciousness in a certain thing when you aren't exposed to the main things that will assist you in mental ascension in regards to that subject.

All in all, I'm not going to anoint FWD but it is true that lesser men in terms of driving will have an easier time taming a FWD car.

I heard from Initial D that RWD can handle more power than FWD can in road racing situations because you don't need to steer/accel/brake with the same wheels. Especially since finland has fast, wide roads it seems like a good explanation. I know that Group N and R4 cars are still beating S2000 cars in Finland because of their higher top speed, which is kinda unusual because almost everywhere else S2000 wipes its ass with R4 subies. Unless I'm reading e-WRC wrong...

What does everyone think of this?

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john vanlandingham
Those 3.0 things seem to have 240hp and 225 ft/lbs and the weight who knows, they are a big car....
Know what that car--is it Derek nelson's car---weighs?

So you reckon that is the key element? 240 hp/225 ft/lbs and ?? for gears and axle?

Weight is probably around 2700-2800 pounds. Same as most modern shit.
I don't think he has anything too fancy with the gearbox, Sean could possibly say. I know Brakim has some dogbox but likely Nelson's car is stock and that means:
4.2, 2.49, 1.66, 1.24, 1.00
Final drive stock on these is 3.15 but a 3.91 is readily available, 4.10 is fairly easy to find as well.
The stock LSD is a two plate per side clutch pack with a pretty easy modification to double the amount of clutches. 1.9, 2.0, and 2.1 mm thick plate options and different washers make it pretty adjustable to whatever torque you want.

I'll never get caught saying that the M3 is the ideal car. It has such a premium on it because of that M rating. I think anyone would be fine starting with a 318 or 325 though I personally think the 318ti makes the nicest looking rally car and the STA style rear might be marginally stronger and less maintenance (or at least less bushings). I picked up a 318ti recently to build into a rally car for the new shop or customer or myself. I have a Merkur that needs finishing first though.

---

Grant Hughes

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Fly-Half
I would imagine that they would be in serious contention for overall victory.

Then I'd say you have an overactive imagination.
Then again, if you mean 'overall win at Oregon Trail' as being the overall win in one of the Regional events, then you're probably right. (but who can honestly call that an overall win on the weekend?)
With a little bit of easy math, you'll see Laggemann was about 7.6 sec per mile slower than the winning car. BUT with a bit of extrapolation to take out the 'bad' stages, you'll see that he was actually about 9 seconds per mile slower over the whole event. That's a massive gap to close.

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[color=#00FF00
john vanlandingham[/color]]Maybe the term "factory driver" means something different in CAR motorsport than it did in what I did.

I'll guess that the meaning, or practical application of the phrase, has changed over the years.
What is the litmus test for a 'Factory Driver,' or even 'Factory Team' in your mind?

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
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Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison

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Fly-Half
I would imagine that they would be in serious contention for overall victory.

Then I'd say you have an overactive imagination.
Then again, if you mean 'overall win at Oregon Trail' as being the overall win in one of the Regional events, then you're probably right. (but who can honestly call that an overall win on the weekend?)
With a little bit of easy math, you'll see Laggemann was about 7.6 sec per mile slower than the winning car. BUT with a bit of extrapolation to take out the 'bad' stages, you'll see that he was actually about 9 seconds per mile slower over the whole event. That's a massive gap to close.

Quote
[color=#00FF00
john vanlandingham[/color]]Maybe the term "factory driver" means something different in CAR motorsport than it did in what I did.

I'll guess that the meaning, or practical application of the phrase, has changed over the years.
What is the litmus test for a 'Factory Driver,' or even 'Factory Team' in your mind?

Factory driver is somebody who is paid a living wage and the Payee on the monthly check is like Yamaha Motors --Japan
or Fuji Heavy Industries--Japan or whatever...

Not somebody who buys their ride with trust fund money or the money of somebody they've sung some song to.


As for 2wd and overall....what was the Ozzie Reeves doing? He isn't the best guy in the whole country and OZ is nowhere near the Scandinavians speed and depth--they themselves readily concede that---

Is somebody suggesting that a amateur driver who does 1-2 events now and then in a virtually stock car---with nice suspension and brakes---is the limit of what can be done?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
NoCoast
I'll never get caught saying that the M3 is the ideal car. It has such a premium on it because of that M rating. I think anyone would be fine starting with a 318 or 325 though I personally think the 318ti makes the nicest looking rally car and the STA style rear might be marginally stronger and less maintenance (or at least less bushings). I picked up a 318ti recently to build into a rally car for the new shop or customer or myself. I have a Merkur that needs finishing first though.

Ah yes, the Compact is the most purdy of them all. And as an added benefit it comes with the E30 rear suspension, which trailing arm's arrangement is better than the silly multi link in the newer models. Also an E36 can be made under 2700lbs without recurring to composites. If I didnt have an already a nuclear powered Civic I would be building one of those.

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Fly-Half
All in all, I'm not going to anoint FWD but it is true that lesser men in terms of driving will have an easier time taming a FWD car.

Obviously you have no experience, but so you dont make arrogant and ignorant statements like this again and make yourself look like a fool, I'll let you know, from personal experience on both platforms, on low power applications, yes FWD is easier to drive, but on a higher power setup, like M3 power for example the FWD car becomes diabolical and very hard to drive. RWD no, the more power the easier it is to drive. See in rwd you get no torque steer.

As for why its the prefered platform in Finland, well maybe its nothing but a choice, just like £100k MK2 Escorts in Ireland, but I can tell you that it has to do with availability of the cars, and also the nature of the roads. You will never see an M3 or Volvo do well in England or worse, France or Portugal. Why is that? Stay tuned for the next edition.

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LexusFman
I heard from Initial D that RWD can handle more power than FWD can in road racing situations because you don't need to steer/accel/brake with the same wheels. Especially since finland has fast, wide roads it seems like a good explanation. I know that Group N and R4 cars are still beating S2000 cars in Finland because of their higher top speed, which is kinda unusual because almost everywhere else S2000 wipes its ass with R4 subies. Unless I'm reading e-WRC wrong...

What does everyone think of this?

I didnt even see this post, but you are right, the S2000's top speed is 165km/h on gravel and 175km/h on tarmac, while a GrN can easily do 210km/h. Those are not technical stages, they are commitment stages, so the car's maneuverability isnt as important, hence why GrN can still keep up.

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Cosworth
You will never see an M3 or Volvo do well in England or worse, France or Portugal. Why is that?

Weight and wheelbase. Tighter and twistier the roads, the more these are a hindrance.

Dave's S50 powered Compact was a few pounds shy of 2700 pounds if I recall. We also did liquid nitrogen to remove 80 pounds or so of sound deadening. Nothing too crazy yet. He decided instead of worrying about another 100 pounds of weight to just add another 100 hp. Who am I kidding, he's still worrying about that weight. For comparison, my Merkur was 2650 before I removed around 100 pounds in sound deadening and unneccessary metal bracketry.

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Cosworth
If I didnt have an already a nuclear powered Civic I would be building one of those.

I'd build a Compact if I didn't have this Bobcat powered Merkur. We did build a E36 325i Chumpcar and it's a riot. Other friend is now converting his E36 Chumpcar to rally duty for a hill climb this weekend and Idaho Rally in June. That seems like a smart way to start out, build a simple and nearly stock 325i that you can do a few rallies and few Chumpcar or WRL events in.

I know we're working on developing a plethora of bolt on rally specific parts for them right now. Did a NextEngine scan of uprights and stock rear towers for some suspension development stuff.

---

Grant Hughes

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john vanlandingham
Factory driver is somebody who is paid a living wage and the Payee on the monthly check is like Yamaha Motors --Japan
or Fuji Heavy Industries--Japan or whatever...
Not somebody who buys their ride with trust fund money or the money of somebody they've sung some song to.

By the same token, would you have required Ford WRC drivers to have received cheques cut in the USA to be considered 'factory' drivers?
By those standards I'd suggest the day of the 'factory driver' is long gone and would have never existed in North American Rally with the possible exception of North American manufacturer teams.

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john vanlandingham
Is somebody suggesting that a amateur driver who does 1-2 events now and then in a virtually stock car---with nice suspension and brakes---is the limit of what can be done?

No.
Is somebody suggesting that 9 seconds per mile is a trivial difference in pace?
If L'Estage were entered as well as Higgins and Pastrana, I'd think it would take one of them having a problem for a top GrF driver to stand a chance of getting their car onto the podium. An overall win would almost certainly mean all three of the top crews having a problem at one time or another.
A decade ago was probably a different story.

Of course, this is all speculation. It would be awesome to be proven wrong...

I thought I heard Jardevall was building another volvo, which would be awesome to see. Ramana was extolling the fun value of being in a RWD car, which is a good thing.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2014 10:51AM by Morison.