So this might be a silly question... but is it cool to cut a hole in the bottom of a seat to route the anti-sub belt in the preferred manor? Or just route it around the front and then down?

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DexterVW
So this might be a silly question... but is it cool to cut a hole in the bottom of a seat to route the anti-sub belt in the preferred manor? Or just route it around the front and then down?

Since we're not reclining like at the beach, and there's less likelihood with all the trees flashing by of going to sleep compare with guys who do recline in their cars, I know I'm not going to slip out from under the harnesses, so i don't cut the seat, I cram the sub belt into the cushion and everything ios groovy.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

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CALL +1 206 431-9696
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John, why would you offer advice like that?

The anti-submarine belt is crucial to propper function of the safety harness. If you do not have an access hole on the seat to properly route the 5th belt of the system, get a seat with a hole, make a hole (after contacting either the seat maker or a good scrutineer) or run 6 point belts, which loop through the sidees of the seat.

Don't cut the seat - either run as tight to the front as possible (not as desireable) or use 6 point coming in the sides. Had a long fight with a scrutineer who will remain nameless about the fact that it is perfectly permissible to mount 6 point sub belts from the same points as the lap belts, just running under the legs like a diaper or climbing harness. Ultimately mounted them to the floor, but what a waste of time and effort. Purpose of the sub is to place the waist belt, but more importantly, keep you from slipping out under the lap belt in an impact. 6 point harness is much more efficient than 5 here, and you don't risk the lack of future generations from impact.

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"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

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wvonkessler
Had a long fight with a scrutineer who will remain nameless about the fact that it is perfectly permissible to mount 6 point sub belts from the same points as the lap belts, just running under the legs like a diaper or climbing harness.

I know the first six points I had experience with that was what they had recommended.

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Grant Hughes

I don't have a problem with cutting through the seat if it is the suspension type. I would not cut into a hard shell seat.

Don't listen to John. I have no idea why he would say something so foolish. Not using the sub belt will hurt you.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

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Rallymech
I don't have a problem with cutting through the seat if it is the suspension type. I would not cut into a hard shell seat.

Don't listen to John. I have no idea why he would say something so foolish. Not using the sub belt will hurt you.

Bullshit Robert.
Utter alarmist bullshit. We are not near reclining. Millions of people have rammed into a lotta nasty shit with thin, narrow 3 point street car seat belts...
I have hit things (including a city bus), with 15 year old 3 point belts.
Not the least tendency to slip out --submarine under the belts.

When the body is not reclining, when there is a angle between lap and torso, you don't slide out, even in street cars hitting things violently. Our 4 point harness are worlds better than road car 3 point things.
You want to believe you can slide out, then use the 5-6 point anti-submarine part...
And dont lay down in the car and then hit things.

Then again I also say there was no rally crash data suggesting that HANS shit was needed, while there was decades of data showing people surviving just dandy without.... that the whole process was a knee jerk reaction..

Now that there is increasing evidence of back injuries emerging in European rally post HANS rules, some are beginning to question in higher circles---elsewhere. yeah yeah, what do a buncha frogs and Czechs know about rally just cause they have a couple of thousand more people hitting things than we have entries nationwide.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I see more reason to use them than not to, however it seems to me a person with their head on straight would not tighten them so tight that they are the first point of pressure in an incident. In the perfect little crash test area in my head, I see less likelihood of some one submarining than there is of having a belt cut, or broken in a crash. In my mind they should be more like the backup parachute than a first line of defense.

have any of you fallen wearing an osha approved safety harness? not fun at a six inch fall when you're an idiot, not fun when one of your co workers cranes you off a roof when you are not paying attention. I'd hate to imagine the pain involved from an over-tightened belt in that area in even a mild crash.

You pussies with your pansy seat belts and such. REAL men prefer to be thrown clear!

Listen to yourself John, you told someone to no use part of their seat belt!

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

John, the reason why 3 point DOT belts don't allow submarining is because the body is allowed to pitch forward at the shoulder not restrained. Look at DOT harnesses designed for a stock seat. They have a special anti-sub section on one shoulder belt that allows that side to give more than the other side so the body moves similarly to a 3 point system.

When both shoulders are held back, there is more tendancy for the pelvis to slide under the lap belt. It wouldn't take much movement to cause some injury to organs right above the pelvis by the lap belt.

Tim.

people, when you all admit that a lot of the shit you RATIIONALIZE really is because you want to pretend that you "need" all this stuff, life will become clearer.

Name one rally type person you know who even began to slide out from under properly positioned and snugged up 4 point harnesses.
Name one. Did they have anything that looked like a waist or did their body form resemble a bowling ball?

So wear what you want, but look into your hearts to understand where the desire originates...and much originates in the desire to imitate what you are told and see your heroes doing, and get reinforcement for, not from need or experience.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

You're the one using incorrect comparisons and annecdotes (or lake there of) to support your decision.

In this case, the anti-sub belt is there, even if it's a one in a million chance it will ever be needed, why not use it? At least it didn't cost you $600 like a HANS.

They didn't create anti-sub systems out of nothing. This is clearly marketing, no data is given, but the visual is obvious. It's something that happens.




Tim.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2012 10:54AM by TronDD.

A three point belt prevents submarining by design, the rotation of the upper body in the impact forces the lap belt to tighten, preventing submarining

I meant to post that schroth video in my reply.