NoCoast Grant Hughes Mod Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
This one has all the different car models with T5's. Still trying to find a list like this that has the input shaft lenghts. I've seen it for the Ford applications, but not for other things. And since the 2.95 1st gear was used more often in non-Ford applications...
http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Borg-Warner-T5-ID-Tags.htm Grant Hughes |
NoCoast Grant Hughes Mod Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
http://books.google.com/books?id=TsBde1ereuAC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=gm+t5+identification+input+shaft+length&source=web&ots=BsvuRAIb4q&sig=SYIdNcWpx5z-8oDX1yxt3-z1lVU&hl=en#PPA87,M1
This book has a wealth of info on part's swapping. Here's some important notes. The GM T5 transmissions have a different bolt pattern for the bell housing. Except the Chevette and later WC V6 cars (Camaro and Firebirds). However, they are cantered 15 degrees counter clockwise. That to me means that for Ford engine applications where a bellhousing from a 4 cylinder T5 is used the GM T5s are not very compatible. The Ford T5: All use 1.0625" diameter, 10 spline input shaft 83-93 V8 transmissions have 7.18" long input shaft, 0.668 pilot bearing 4 cylinder transmissions have 7.41" long input shaft, 0.590 pilot bearing 94-05 V6/V8 transmissions have 7.85" long input shaft, 0.668" pilot bearing The GM T5s all use a 0.590" pilot bearing V8 - 1.125" diameter, 26 spline input shaft, 7.18" length 4 cylinder/V6 - 1" diameter, 14 spline, 7.18" length Late V6 with Ford pattern - 1.125" diameter, 26 spline, 7.14" length Grant Hughes |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Junior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
|
NoCoast Grant Hughes Mod Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
|
fiasco Andrew Steere Godlike Moderator Location: South Central Nude Hamster Join Date: 12/29/2005 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 2,008 Rally Car: too rich for my blood, share a LeMons car |
NoCoast Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > How come you don't have an answering machine? I'd > have left a message last night. > > Grant Hughes > www.nocoastmotorsports.net > Denver, CO Usually one of the booboo kittens answers the phone there! Andrew Steere Lyndeborough, NH KB1PJY |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Junior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
NoCoast Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > How come you don't have an answering machine? I'd > have left a message last night. > > Grant Hughes > www.nocoastmotorsports.net > Denver, CO I was in from 6:25 onward, you calling on one of them fancy computerized gawd damn things? I's home now, mang. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
NoCoast Grant Hughes Mod Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
|
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Junior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
NoCoast Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Does anyone know what happens with the T5 Camaro > tranny in a Merkur? I saw the pic of the crooked > mount, but that looked like a Volvo application > and am curious as to if that would work in the > Merkur. > > Grant Hughes > www.nocoastmotorsports.net > Denver, CO I'm sure it could be done. Gearstick would be in the right place, and 5 th a bit better than the "Z" spec V8 Ford thing and judging from driving Kevvies 2300 SOHC Turbo with the Cossie turbine housing, and a 4.1 axle the car feels great, the box seems and sounds like a close ratio 1st -4th. Perhaps the smart hybrid would be Fox box and Chev tailshft housing/shift linkage. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
NoCoast Grant Hughes Mod Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
Taken from Godfrey's site.
Ford/GM T-5 Hybrid conversion As part of my 3.8 SC engine swap it was necessary to upgrade to a World Class (WC) T-5 transmission. The SC trans is plenty strong, but has a hydraulic clutch and I did not want to re-engineer the pedals to accommodate a clutch master cylinder. A 5.0 bell housing bolts to a 3.8 as does the flywheel though rebalancing is necessary. Of the T-5's readily available I preferred the 2.95 first gear, close ratio box with a .63 overdrive. I also wanted to incorporate the GM Camaro/Firebird type T-5 extension housing to the trans so the shifter would be in a more stock like location. Hanolin Motorsports (610-469-2695) will build such a transmission but the cost was far outside my budget. Besides, I wanted to find out exactly what is involved installing the GM spec parts. Over the years I have obtained several T-5 transmissions though none were complete. I was able to get a GM spec T-5 from my junkyard bud to use for parts. Borg Warner made several versions of the T-5. Of concern to us is the WC & Non World Class (NWC (sounds like wrestling)) Ford & GM types. Ford changed to all WC transmissions a few years before GM. The main difference between the types is the WC has the mainshaft gears riding on needle bearings & an improved syncro assembly. NWC internal parts will not interchange with the WC version. The NWC GM extension housing & shift rod will fit the WC trans. Essentially what is involved in mating the GM spec parts to the Ford case is to replace the mainshaft, shifter shaft and extension housing & shifter assembly. A world class GM mainshaft & 5th gear assembly must be used. The other parts can be NWC. There is a .73 & .63 GM spec 5th gear available, either one will work. The reason for the GM 5th gear set is that the GM mainshaft has a different spline where the 5th driven gear goes. The Ford spec part will slide over the spline & seem to fit, but in fact the gear rotates like it is an eccentric. The trans. will rotate 1/2 turn either direction then lock up. The GM .63 5th driven gear will not mate with the Ford .63 5th drive gear. The teeth count between the 2 sets is the same but the pitch diameter is different. Why these minute differences? Go figure. So, an entire GM 5th gearset must be used. There were also some differences in the gear thickness on the 5th drive. Where Ford has a one piece gear GM has a gear & a spacer that equals the same thickness. They also had a one piece gear like Ford. Make sure the spacer is used if required. If the 5th drive gear has end play (about .125" when it's snap ring is installed then a spacer is needed. A working T-5 can have the GM spec parts without complete disassembly. The trans will have to be broken down to the point where the input shaft can be removed, but it is not necessary to remove the cluster gear. With the mainshaft out the Ford gears & syncros can be swapped to the GM mainshaft. The input shaft preload will have to be checked since the mainshaft bearing is positioned by the extension housing. Tools required for disassembly are a good pair of external snap ring pliers and a set of 'duck bill" pliers. Also needed is a brass or aluminum drift & hammer. Wrench sizes are metric. Borg Warner makes a great service manual. This is a must have item. Step by step instructions are detailed for disassembly & assembly. Also included are the bearing preload instructions. Both the cluster gear & input & mainshaft bearings are tapered rollers so preload is important. There are no gaskets used. All surfaces are sealed with RTV. The assembly steps are carefully outlined, but I would suggest that the trans be assembled without RTV sealant to the point where the shifting can be verified. If you have to disassemble the trans because of a mistake it can get messy. BTDT! When all is well remove the extension housing, top cover, & input bearing retainer and seal with RTV. I bought a T-5 overhaul kit from D&D Performance (248-926-6220) & was impressed with the contents. All the bearings, snap rings, spacers, shims, syncro keys & syncros and small parts were included. Different thickness shims were included for proper bearing preload. I also purchased the 2.95 gearset from them. The GM T-5 is rotated at a greater angle that the Ford version. Because of this a wedge shape adapter has to be fabricate to interface the GM extension housing with a Ford transmission mount. This is really a simple part to make, but I chose to buy one from Jim Deberry (803-788-5597) since he already has the part designed. The guys at D&D were real helpful with this project. They specialize in Ford T-5's but refereed me to Paul at Liberty Gear (313-278-4040) for the GM spec items. Liberty Gear deals mostly in GM spec T-5's. Paul was also very helpful and knowledgeable. He sold me a used WC GM mainshaft & 5th gear assy for $150. I thought his prices were very fair & service was good. I spent a total of $790 on the trans. If I did not want the 2.95 first gear (or had one to start with) the price would have been around $300, including the complete small parts kit. Since I did not start with a complete trans it took a bit of thinking to get it together. I liken the task similar to building one of those foam 3-D puzzles. If you can build one on them going through a T-5 will be easy. In summary, the minimum parts required to put a GM spec mainshaft on a Ford trans are: GM extension housing & shifter (WC or NWC) GM spec WC mainshaft GM spec shifter shaft GM spec 5th gear assembly with spacer (if needed) WC bearing shim kit I hope this info is helpful. If needed feel free to email me at dgodfrey@peimail.com. Grant Hughes |
Vorpal_Rally Stinkfinger Lipschitz Ultra Moderator Location: Uranus Join Date: 02/17/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 325 |
Ok,
The first thing (ok maybe the second thing) that will happen when I get the car from George is going to go with a manual transmission. I am going right from the outset with the T5 and in looking at pictures of Kevin's custom BH, where did his bellhousing come from? I know there'll be some custom machine work to be done, but that's ok. OH, and GM WC T5 or a Ford/GM hybrid? with the 2.95 first? Opinions? It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion. William Ralph Inge TANSTAAFL |
I don't know where Kevin got his bell housing adapter. There are a few sources, one of which is John Parker over at http://www.v-performance.com. He's a good guy, but is notoriously slow. I'm not sure if he's less or more slow than usual at the moment.
Edit to hopefully make url clickable? Andrew M Onterrible 30ish Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2008 08:31PM by hudson. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Junior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Kevin's bellhousing was the fruit of his work and design and my guidance and Ford Escort Rally Preparations excellent drawings and inspiration.
In other words I rolled up the Ford book and beat Kevvie with it. Now we used a Chevy V8 T5 because the gearstick is perfect for the Volvo 240, all Chevy T5s have the nice 2.95 first, and a little more realistic .72 5th. The first prototype was a BIG plate and LOTS of chips. Kevin and I have looked hard at the way the thing can be done more rationally, more production like and have come up with a revised deal to SAVE MATERIAL, and save costs. I figure I want to have 25 bellhousings on hand so when we do a run, we have some left on the shelf. I think I have now about 15, so you guys thinking of this T5 thing send every bellhousing you can get hold of. Note we made Kevvie's so you spin off 4 bolts from the outside and pull the box and leave the bellhousing and arm and guide and release bearing, so, if'n you happened to have a spare box, you could swap ion a box in less than 15 minutes. Again, Ford's book was the inspiration. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
John,
That sounds good.. I'm not quite sure if I understand the 4 bolt thing tough. Aren't most/all transmissions with removable bellhousings removable with 4 bolts? Also when I said the v-performance guy is slow, I was being polite. Cheers, Edit/ I guess it's more like 8 if you count the other end! Andrew M Onterrible 30ish Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2008 11:49PM by hudson. |
Pete Pete Remner Super Moderator Location: Cleveland, Ohio Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 2,022 |
hudson Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > John, > > That sounds good.. I'm not quite sure if I > understand the 4 bolt thing tough. Aren't most/all > transmissions with removable bellhousings > removable with 4 bolts? American ones, yeah. Furrin bastards like to use six or eight going in from the bellhousing end so you have to take the trans off first and then remove the bellhousing. But I haven't seen an American trans yet where the *guide* stays in place, if I'm reading him right. The Ford book (bows in silence) shows some funky setup where the input shaft and everything stay inside the bellhousing, and the top two trans bolts go in radially not axially. Makes trans changes super duper fast, no lining up the clutch or futzing the throwout bearing onto the input shaft sleeve or anything like that. Pete Remner Cleveland, Ohio 1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing) 1978 Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver. |
Vorpal_Rally Stinkfinger Lipschitz Ultra Moderator Location: Uranus Join Date: 02/17/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 325 |
john vanlandingham Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Kevin's bellhousing was the fruit of his work and > design and my guidance and Ford Escort Rally > Preparations excellent drawings and inspiration. > In other words I rolled up the Ford book and beat > Kevvie with it. > > Now we used a Chevy V8 T5 because the gearstick is > perfect for the Volvo 240, all Chevy T5s have the > nice 2.95 first, and a little more realistic .72 > 5th. > > The first prototype was a BIG plate and LOTS of > chips. > Kevin and I have looked hard at the way the thing > can be done more rationally, more production like > and have come up with a revised deal to SAVE > MATERIAL, and save costs. > > I figure I want to have 25 bellhousings on hand so > when we do a run, we have some left on the shelf. > I think I have now about 15, so you guys thinking > of this T5 thing send every bellhousing you can > get hold of. > > Note we made Kevvie's so you spin off 4 bolts from > the outside and pull the box and leave the > bellhousing and arm and guide and release bearing, > so, if'n you happened to have a spare box, you > could swap ion a box in less than 15 minutes. > > Again, Ford's book was the inspiration. > > > > > > John Vanlandingham > Sleezattle, WA, USA > > Vive le Prole-le-ralliat > > www.jvab.f4.ca Kevin's looks totally bitch!! Ease of maintenance and being able to swap out a box in 15 mins sounds like my kind of deal. John, I will send you a bellhousing, but which one? A Volvo stick bell housing? A T5 Chevy one? It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion. William Ralph Inge TANSTAAFL |