Roll Cage inspection

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irishfire
Thanks everyone for the help. I did give these guys books and pictures to follow fyi. But besides that I have a meeting this week with them to decide the future of the car. If it was up to me, tear our the cage and start again. Looking at it last night, it looked like it wouldn't be a to big pain in the ass to tear out, with all the weird fittings and no windshield. I'll keep you updated on what happens.

I can bring my car by their shop if you want. It's also a hatch so it should be a good example. Or get a hold of Dick Rockrohr and he would probably be happy to drive his Salta built STI by.

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john vanlandingham
and an open mind

Open minds are helpful in bed and making friends. Not building roll cages. Building a cage with an open mind gets you the OP's not legal cage.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

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heymagic
Rally cages aren't a big mystery and the basic formula is quite simple and must be followed. Originality is not welcomed so much on this. Copying FIA homologated designs like some of the Subes is not allowed if bar placement or tubing size or thickness conflicts with the basic FIA 253 rules for generic cages.

Remember when John Cirisan put the Subaru homologated cage into a Merkur and then was all butt hurt when told it was only good for scrap?

Originality is asking for liability in my mind. I follow the rules exactly with no fancy theoretical engineering ideas. I also am of the opinion that a shell should cost under $3k to prep with cage and be fairly disposable and the only important thing a cage should do is give a good safety compartment for the passengers. Any added benefit like shell rigidity is just that. I also do not like nor do tie ins to the front strut towers. Might be from that heli ride the guys in front of me got after punching a tree 3 miles into my first stage rally. The biggest problem was the skid plates attached to cage feet so engine and tranny had nowhere to go but straight back into their legs (3-4 broken ankles) and the whole front of the car was super solid as well and probably negligible energy absorbsion from the stock crumple zones that can't crumple. I'd rather build a new shell due to bent shock towers than have a broken back.

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Grant Hughes

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Dazed_Driver

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john vanlandingham
and an open mind

Open minds are helpful in bed and making friends. Not building roll cages. Building a cage with an open mind gets you the OP's not legal cage.

You're confusing and "open mind" with a "creative mind"

An example: Get me to the number 10

1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 or is that 5 + 5 or maybe we flip it around completely and it's 20/2 etc.

I walked across the Golden Gate bridge last month for the first time after visiting SanFrancisco dozens of times. Common knowledge for some but I'll share....The pillars are built with a honey comb structure hollowed and stacked vertically for strength, much like the trunk of a tree is not solid. Completely unrelated but there, You say roll bar, I think honey!

An open mind means I'll listen to your ideas on how to get to 10. A creative mind says I'll come up with one even better.

I know not your points (or your points exactly).



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2012 11:58PM by Wannabe.

The poor reading and even poorer comprehension, the missating previous claims and then arguing about ones own mistatements, the thinkheadedness I would expect from some of the particularly stupider inexperience punks here who think they are smart and can learn by aruing, but it's a bit upsetting to see a simple point so twisted and purposely misunderstood.

I said clearly that my main point is that I find it mystifying that people can pick and choose just what they want from any TEXT or document, much like every Bible thumper who scolds everybody about their failings and ignores there own, who claims special knowledge but who---for example, fails to make animal sacrifice and burnt offerings, and who doesn smite or stone others who break Mosaic Law..

Repeat: Gene the alleged geniuses who require all the latest shit like X in the main hoop plane are the same engineers and experts who wrote this:
8.3.2.1 Compulsory members and reinforcements :
8.3.2.1.1 Diagonal member :
Cars homologated before 01.01.2002:
The cage must have one of the diagonal members defined by
Drawings 253-4, 253-5, 253-6. The orientation of the diagonal may
be reversed.
In the case of Drawing 253-6, the distance between the two
mountings on the bodyshell/chassis must not be greater than
300mm.
Members must be straight and may be removable.
The upper end of the diagonal must join the main rollbar no further than 100 mm from its junction with the backstay, or the backstay
no more than 100 mm from its junction with the main rollbar (see
Drawing 253-52 for the measurement).
The lower end of the diagonal must join the main rollbar or the
backstay no further than 100 mm from the mounting foot (except
for the case of Drawing 253-6).
Cars homologated as from 01.01.2002:
The cage must have two diagonal members on the main rollbar
according to Drawing 253-7.
Members must be straight and may be removable.
The lower end of the diagonal must join the main rollbar no further
than 100 mm from the mounting foot (see Drawing 253-52 for the
measurement).
The upper end of the diagonal must join the main rollbar no further
than 100 mm from its junction with the backstay.
253-4 253-5 253-6 253-7
8.3.2.1.4 Windscreen pillar reinforcement :
Cars homologated as from 01.01.2006 only:
It must be fitted on each side of the front rollbar if dimension "A" is
greater than 200 mm (Drawing 253-15).
It may be bent on condition that it is straight in side view and that
the angle of the bend does not exceed 20°.
Its upper end must be less than 100 mm from the junction between
the front (lateral) rollbar and the longitudinal (transverse) member
(see Drawing 253-52 for the measurement).
Its lower end must be less than 100 mm from the (front) mounting
foot of front (lateral) rollbar.

Gene, your all growling and frankly insulting me with bullshit like "peddle your homemade suspension and leave the blah blah..
And THIS bullshit "The main hoop X has been designed, studied and certified by todays engineers with what ever means they have, not JVL on a napkin. "

Tell me Gene and Timmy, why did those Todays' Engineers certify AND INCLUDE IN FUCKING 2012 RULES THESE PAPRGRAPHS SAYING THESE ALTERNATE DESIGNS ARE STILL IN 2012 PERFECTLY FINE--FOR CARS HOMOLOGATED BEFORE THIS OR THAT DATE.

COMMON GAWDDAMMIT . YOU GUYS ARE SO FUCKING SMART ANSWER THAT QUESTION..

DO YOU GUYS SEE THAT WHAT i HAVE BEEN ASKING IS NOT A DESIGN OF CAGE QUESTION LIKE YOU GENIUSES KEEP ACCUSING AND SMIRKING BUT A QUESTION
---------->"WHY ARE YOU PICKING AND CHOOSING ONLY SOME SECTIONS OF ALL THE APPROVED DESIGNS THOSE "TODAYS ENGINNERS CERTIFIED?"<----------


And for the record Gene I have installed a few--relative few---7-8 cages and supplied more, good solid designs, all FIA legal (all the way back to 1992 using 1.75 main hoop and 40mm for the rest) and they were in the "more traditional' design.
You know one of them and that car has bounced off the roof something like 12-13 times...no problems....
Quit getting insulting, you may have installed a bazillion more cages but that does not mean you understand the forces and the mitigation and resolution of force better--or you would have never used a gusset on centerline on any cage....where I was making and installing so called "taco" gussets about 7 years before I saw another car using them--Carl merril's ex-works Escort Cosworth shell, and I have no idea how many years before they became the rule 12? 15?

That's cause I LIVED and worked and made and modded on lightweight tube structures and had the benefit of working as equals with real engineers who designed the structures at Husqvarna, Maico and KTM.

So fucking knock off this bullshit that I'm playing with shit ideas on some napkin.

And answer the goddam question why "todays engineers certified" all those designs and included them as approved designs in current rulebook,

AND YOU AND EVERYBODY ELSE IGNORES EVERYTHING but a few pick and chosen paragraphs.



Oh and a furher note on all you guys shit reading abilities and shit comprehension.
In an official document like the above quoted FIA shit , when those fuckers underline things that because they want to emphasize things..
Note they underlined some things...why do you dismiss what they tried in vain to stress? You fuckers smarter than them? I know you're all smarter than me but you smarter than them?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Come back and respond with out spewing rage across your keyboard and screen.

Until then, you don't deserve a response. Seriously, if you want to have a conversation, try using a civil tone.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Try to pay attention John...the FIA rules are specifically for CDS tubing and are applicable to homolgated cars before whatever date. They are not even worth considering in Alex's case and no need to cloud the issue or his course to resolve the issue.

Our rules are for DOM and allows the current standard only. If the standard has been updated then it seems to make sense to use that one.

But you know all that, you just seem to think you have to be the dissenting voice for every poor down trodden ralliest in the world.

Start a seperate thread about how the rally gods have pissed in your corn flakes, I'm fine with that. When you're in a thread where someone else has to do a cut out because some other expert thought his shit was better then I get testy. You pose as an expert in all things and someone new can easily be mislead or confused into making another mistake. There is very little gray area in car safety construction and our rules will be followed or the car doesn't run. Keeping discussions clean and clear is the best policy rather that trying to comprehend your incessant jibberish and word games.

Damn I missed arguing with you...

We may have new keepers shortly and new rules to fuss about, ought to be interesting what we can churn up then!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2012 01:45AM by heymagic.

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Dazed_Driver
Come back and respond with out spewing rage across your keyboard and screen.

Until then, you don't deserve a response. Seriously, if you want to have a conversation, try using a civil tone.

That's where you're wrong, punk. I'm not interested in the thoughts of some 20 something whiner bullshitter..
Why would I be?
You have not an original thought in your head.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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heymagic
Try to pay attention John...the FIA rules are specifically for CDS tubing and are applicable to homolgated cars before whatever date. They are not even worth considering in Alex's case and no need to cloud the issue or his course to resolve the issue.

Our rules are for DOM and allows the current standard only. If the standard has been updated then it seems to make sense to use that one.

But you know all that, you just seem to think you have to be the dissenting voice for every poor down trodden ralliest in the world.

Start a seperate thread about how the rally gods have pissed in your corn flakes, I'm fine with that. When you're in a thread where someone else has to do a cut out because some other expert thought his shit was better then I get testy. You pose as an expert in all things and someone new can easily be mislead or confused into making another mistake. There is very little gray area in car safety construction and our rules will be followed or the car doesn't run. Keeping discussions clean and clear is the best policy rather that trying to comprehend your incessant jibberish and word games.

Damn I missed arguing with you...

We may have new keepers shortly and new rules to fuss about, ought to be interesting what we can churn up then!

Gene I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand but you keep answering the "what" about cages and I'm asking the thing that should come before the what; the why.

Their old rules were for their material---and ARE still good enough for them today, Rally America decided that substituting US spec was OK ONLY on some designs....

That's the what Gene.
Its a different thing asking "why"
Lessons in logic--since you have a hard time folowing my gibberish

When something --a value, weight, factor. thang appears on both sides of an equation it's easy to cancel the factor out when looking to sum up both sides.. Follow? Then you look at what's different in both sides, and then try and figure why those differences might make a result different..

The rules are the rules...you and stupid children don't have to keep repeating that....the poor guy got hosed but the local boys are gonna rescue him to whatever degree they can, evidently I put those guys onto a good source of tubing for way good price--oh yeah I don't know anything about roll cages, I forgot---only saved them about half their money---that's all fine..

I will keep asking WHY since there has been no attempt to answer why---

I believe I know why: paranoia about getting their asses sued, coupled with a truly perverse and thick headed reading of the FIA rules..
Obstinate we gotta mess with shit cause we're 'merikuns attitude.

But ask or screaming at me to shut up because YOU CAN keep a straight face and pretend you don't know that the only serious cage failures in actual use have been some lightweight big budget alleged FIA CURRENT SPEC cages---not the stuff like 05 or 03 or 02 spec made with US materials and dimesnions.. I can't.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham

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Dazed_Driver
Come back and respond with out spewing rage across your keyboard and screen.

Until then, you don't deserve a response. Seriously, if you want to have a conversation, try using a civil tone.

That's where you're wrong, punk. I'm not interested in the thoughts of some 20 something whiner bullshitter..
Why would I be?
You have not an original thought in your head.

Probably because you asked...

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john vanlandingham
Tell me Gene and Timmy,

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

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Dazed_Driver

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john vanlandingham

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Dazed_Driver
Come back and respond with out spewing rage across your keyboard and screen.

Until then, you don't deserve a response. Seriously, if you want to have a conversation, try using a civil tone.

That's where you're wrong, punk. I'm not interested in the thoughts of some 20 something whiner bullshitter..
Why would I be?
You have not an original thought in your head.

Probably because you asked...

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john vanlandingham
Tell me Gene and Timmy,

My god you are dense...
I've made it perfectly clear that I know--not believe, not think---KNOW-- you haven't a genuine thought in your head and that I despise your surly way of speaking to people--I spoke to you about that in my garage once when you were groaning and rolling your eyes around during at phone call with somebody in your family..
Saying tell so and so is not an expression of a desire to waste time talking to a certified air-head, it is an obvious comment saying I do not want to...

Go work on your car...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Woah, hey guys...

Didn't mean to start a mini war in here haha.

Well let me update you on whats going on. Bucks 4x4 out of Boise, ID won't fix the cage or reimburse. In Idaho all contracts are binding. Even vocal ones. So without getting into it I'm taking them to small claims court and will be using the first two pages of this forum post to help. I also have people here writing stuff up and a helpful sponsor checking it out. I appreciate all the help but chances are we are cutting the cage out and just starting over. I have dumped a ton into this already and can't afford to start on a new car. And by dump I mean find a mk2 for a decent price and strip it and re order suspension.

For the record I would like to say not only is this horrible business practice but its a way to get your name smeared in a growing community. My jeep buddies already hate this guy and are more than happy to inspect the cage, they are certified welders with the local steel companies, and help in anyway. It's just sad to see a local company not help a local cause. This cage also took 4 months to build in a shop...

After the judgement has been past I'll post the emails about what he was saying to me and I'm sure it will piss most of you off.

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irishfire
I appreciate all the help but chances are we are cutting the cage out and just starting over. I have dumped a ton into this already and can't afford to start on a new car. And by dump I mean find a mk2 for a decent price and strip it and re order suspension.

That sucks! One thing to keep in mind is that its possible a cage like this might be useable for a Lemons car or some other track-day type car, so maybe there is some value to it for the right person. Maybe trade it? Cutting a cage out isn't fun, and I'd bet that whatever suspension stuff you've ordered could easily be moved to another rabbit or sold to someone who's rallying one if its good stuff.

Dave

If you do get something back from him, consider a road trip out to MN for a finished MKII.

http://www.specialstage.com/forums/showthread.php?46749-1985-VW-GTI-G2-Rally-Car-for-sale

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fliz
If you do get something back from him, consider a road trip out to MN for a finished MKII.

http://www.specialstage.com/forums/showthread.php?46749-1985-VW-GTI-G2-Rally-Car-for-sale

Let's cross our fingers for the guy.. I can advise on Small Claims, how to win. That's the easy part. The hard part is collecting a judgement...

And that VW-----deal!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.